DART+ (DART Expansion)

AngryLips · 22-08-2023 7:30pm

It does seem strange that services west terminate at Hazelhatch. That's a much shorter distance outside of the city than the journey up to Drogheda.

LXFlyer · 22-08-2023 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013222#Comment_121013222

The historic perspective is that there was no funding for it, nor any political will for such services. The NTA are changing that, and now they dictate service levels rather than the railway company, but there are logistical issues preventing the rollout of extra services in the timetable.

The first is that there is basically no spare rolling stock available at peak times, and very limited options at other times, until the new ICR coaches roll out in 2024. That's 41 new intermediate coaches, and we will have to see what they allow happen in terms of rolling stock cascades.

However the main problem preventing rollout of new services across the network is the shortage of drivers, and it is a real issue. It is a legacy of a lengthy industrial dispute when the unions put a moratorium on in-cab training and the effects of Covid when no in-cab training could take place. Couple these with drivers retiring and not being able to be replaced, and some of the new external recruits apparently leaving as they didn't find the job it as attractive as they thought it would be, and you have a perfect storm. It's not one that you can sort quickly unfortunately.

The company is playing catch up, but it does take at least 12 months to fully train a new driver before they can go out driving trains on their own and there are limits on how many they can train up each year as well.

The reality is that additions to the timetable are happening incrementally at a much slower pace than we would all like - we saw the addition of the Connolly-Arklow evening service earlier this year for example. It's just going to take time.

bk · 22-08-2023 7:45pm

"Is there any semblance of plans as to the rollout of new DART+ trains/services? i.e. Can we expect certain services to rollout before full OHE lines?"

They have awarded the contract to Alstom to install the charging infrastrucutre in Drogheda station by the end of 2024, with the trains entering service in 2025, so I assume it will be the first line to get them.

BTW interesting tidbit, a new substation will be built at Drogheda for the fast chargers and it will include battery units. I assume the idea being they can charge the batteries in the substation gradually and then quickly "dump" the energy into the train when it arrives at Drogheda.

orangerhyme · 22-08-2023 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013447#Comment_121013447

I was thinking more in terms of opening up Kylemore Industrial Park for development.

Even now on Google maps I can see big empty spaces.

A Dart station would accelerate development.

I don't think anti social behaviour is a strong enough reason. People said the same about Broombridge.

danfrancisco83 · 22-08-2023 8:58pm

I hope you're right, everything east of Le Fanu road is grand these days, dare I say it, some of the lower end might even see some gentrification. This is an interesting project, I wonder will it ever happen though. https://cityedge.ie/

Tomrota · 22-08-2023 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013451#Comment_121013451

It never made sense to me that they were willing to extend way out as far as Drogheda and out to Maynooth but no further on the SW line, especially considering one stop away from Hazelhatch, Sallins & Naas, is one of the busiest stations on the line despite less frequent service and higher fares - that shows huge interest and demand. There is a third unused platform at S&N which would require little investment to refurbish.

It’s not great long-term planning taking into account the fact that the N7 is also the busiest arterial road feeding into the M50, which consistently tails back to Naas every morning rush hour. With the latest CSO data, there are now over 40,000 people in the Naas-Sallins area, and the area continues to grow rapidly, with a large plurality working in Dublin. Bus services are also lacking in the area, so there’s a huge opportunity to make dramatic progress in, not just rail connectivity but, public transport for the entire catchment area.

AngryLips · 22-08-2023 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013990#Comment_121013990

It seems to be that the extension of services is not being dictated by the current commuting 'reach' of Dublin but by where historical services have reached to date. And that's left us with this bizarre situation where services go as far north as Drogheda but only within a stones throw of Dublin to the west and south. Essentially, the reason why services southwest don't go so far out is because, up until recently, you could only get as far into the city as Heuston so why would anyone want to commute to there from any further out of the city? Since getting to Heuston would only represent maybe half of the actual commute. However, the reality now is that there are direct services to the massive employment centres of the Docklands through the PPT and with that service much improved into the future under Dart Plus. Soon after this project is delivered, we'll already be hailing it as totally inadequate because it doesn't go past Hazelhatch and it ignores Kilcock. As for services south, well that's restricted by the single track nature of the line there.

densification · 22-08-2023 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013990#Comment_121013990

I think the infrastructure chose the extensions to a certain degree. The four tracking ends at HH and extending to S&N would add time and cost to D+.

On the plus side, I would expect that S&N will have exclusively non-stop ICR commuter trains to Heuston. There's some scepticism from NL users that Dart+ will lengthen their commutes as they will lose their limited stop services. I'd take a Naas/Newbridge commute with 100kmh average speed commuter trains over a more frequent but much slower Dart.

Tomrota · 22-08-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014204#Comment_121014204

Does DART+ mean that S&N will lose its direct GCD service which has been hugely popular and very successful? Like the post above has said, the Phoenix Park tunnel has completely altered the scope of the line. The increases of services over the last 2 decades alongside the rollout of BusConnects has also altered commuter patterns permanently along the line. It was never possible to get from Sallins to Lucan, Sallins to Drumcondra or Naas to Citywest by combination of bus and rail, for example. However with the introduction of the 90 minute fare and rollout of BusConnects, those journeys and commutes are becoming realised, altering commuting patterns, and opening up public transport as a realistic option to people.

While the bulk of travel is to Heuston or Connolly, I think losing out on the ability to make these connections would be a huge loss. It would be a huge miscalculation if those travelling from what is presently one of the busiest stations on the line would have to make a connection to DART every time they wish to get anywhere other than Heuston. While making connections is a fundamental part of a functioning transport system, the complete reliance would not be appropriate in this case. Furthermore, while a fast direct connection to Heuston, bypassing the DART, may be hugely beneficial, capacity and frequency on the commuter service would have to be massively scaled up to account for the commuter load (and future demand) which is something I cannot see happening to the levels required.

When the fares determination comes out, rail prices will be even cheaper from S&N. I do expect demand will further rise as a result, like we’ve seen in the past.

TravelCounty · 22-08-2023 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014392#Comment_121014392

Yes, this is something that has also come across my mind.

While I agree that a more frequent, faster service serving Portlaoise-Hazelhatch would be great, if the feasibility to do this is not there then essentially we'd be getting minimal journey time improvements while also losing out on the ease of onward travel from Hazelhatch onwards (e.g. to Lucan, Celbridge, Citywest, etc.).

S&N and Newbridge are the two busiest stations on this line (and with many large developments planned and ongoing for both towns aimed at Dublin commuters + new fare structure, they'll become even busier), if the goal of more frequent non-DART commuters is not realistic for some time, then it could really take away from people using the train for non-city centre travel. While for many of us, making 3 journeys is not a problem, to others it is a complete turnoff.

densification · 22-08-2023 11:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014392#Comment_121014392

Yes, I'm 99% sure that the PPT will be exclusively for D+ so S&N will only have services to/from Heuston. There is a possibility that some commuter trains could stop at HH or the new Kylemore Station to allow transfers to PPT Dart+ services.

The extra 41 ICR carriages will help capacity on commuter services but frequency will be limited by the conflict between InterCity and commuter services at S&N until the HH to Portarlington high speed line is built.

orangerhyme · 22-08-2023 11:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013844#Comment_121013844

I think the City Edge project will happen naturally. It's the logical area for the city to grow into.

Gentrification has been spreading west from Kilmainham and Inchicore for years. The Children's Hospital will supplement this.

There's planning permission for huge projects on Naas Rd. See "Southwest Gate" and Royal Liver Retail Park plans.

A Dart station in Ballyfermot would accelerate gentrification. Likewise the De La Salle school project has just started.

The LDA are looking at CIE lands in Inchicore. St Michaels Estate has planning permission and should start soon hopefully.

brianc89 · 23-08-2023 12:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014473#Comment_121014473

The lack of clarity on routes in the planning docs is appalling. How can ABP decide if the plans are appropriate without proper route planning? For example, there is no connection planned from Dart Northern to Spencer Dock station. A huge missed opportunity to free up capacity in Connolly. Lots of northern Dart commuters would welcome going to Spencer Dock (1 / 3 of trains say).

However, I believe all potential routes will be considered before Dart+ is completed. Connecting from West / South West to southbound Dart is seen as a key commuting route.

Forcing all W / SW services to Spencer Dock would be very unpopular. So too would forcing all SW Darts via PPT skipping Heuston Main (HM), or forcing all Kildare / Portlaoise commuter to terminate at HM.

lucernarian · 23-08-2023 4:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010951#Comment_121010951

I asked someone who seemed to have some insight into the fleet proposals. The reply I got here was that they'd have a peak speed of 140kph and an "operational speed" of 130kph. I asked what operational speed really meant, and I didn't get a reply.

densification · 23-08-2023 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014679#Comment_121014679

Sending Northern Line trains to SD would mean they don't connect to any other south-bound Dart line or Metrolink.

It's been a while since I went over the possible routes but from what I can remember from the docs, SD will mainly be for Maynooth/M3 trains via the canal line.

HH trains will either go to Heuston Main or to GCD (or possibly further south) via Drumcondra. Northern line trains terminate at Connolly or go further south to GCD/DL/Bray/GS.

Benefit of SD is that the West/ SW trains will have connected to ML at Glasnevin.

bk · 23-08-2023 1:21pm

“Benefit of SD is that the West/ SW trains will have connected to ML at Glasnevin”

Plus Western line passengers can switch to SW darts if going to GCD/DL/Bray/GS

And Northern line passengers can change at Connolly to go SW (or West with a slightly awkward change at Glasnevin)

brianc89 · 23-08-2023 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015943#Comment_121015943

If one third of Northern Darts were sent to Spencer Dock, passengers could switch at Clontarf Road to Southern bound Darts, or simply wait for the next southern bound dart via Connolly. Frequency on Northern line is planned at every 5minutes.

Going to SD could actually offer more connections (directly to both West and SW dart), versus going to Connolly. Sending a small number of Northern line Darts would free up significant capacity within Connolly which is vital.

We shouldn't underestimate the future popularity of Spencer Dock given it's proximity to Red Luas (better than Connolly), plus the number of offices / residential being completed in that area. A new pedestrian bridge over the Liffey to the South Docks will make Spencer Dock very busy.

Pete_Cavan · 25-08-2023 5:50am

The logic behind sending Maynooth/M3PW trains to SD is that they don't have to cross Northern line trains on their approach to Connolly. That crossing is a huge operational constraint, removing it is the main reason for creating the SD station. Sending Northern line trains to SD would likely create a similar constraint on approach to SD so is unlikely to happen. It may be an imperfect solution but the alternative is probably more imperfect.

Pete_Cavan · 25-08-2023 5:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014198#Comment_121014198

DART services will end at HH because that's where the double-tracking ends. You can’t compare that line to the Northern line, NL is essentially all commuter services bar the hourly Enterprise, so there more scope for commuter trains to go further out. The line west of HH is also double-track but it has to carry multiple intercity and longer distance trains, it naturally has less scope for further out commuter trains than the Northern line.

brianc89 · 25-08-2023 7:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023644#Comment_121023644

This isn't necessarily the case. Not all Maynooth/HH trains will be sent to SD. They still plan on sending some via Connolly.

Spencer Doc has 4x platforms. 1 and 2 (western side) will exclusively use the Royal Canal line (MGWR). It is not possible to get to other lines from these platforms.

Platform 3 and 4 (eastern side) will use Drumcondra line (GSWR line). However I am wrong on one point, there is a connection from Spencer Dock to Northern Line. It's a single line connection for a short section but platform 3 and 4 can get to inbound/outbound Northern line.

It would be far simpler to manage that conflict versus Connolly (multiple intercity, Dart, Maynooth and HH services). We're only likely talking 1 out of every 3 Northern trains, so one every 15minutes max from SD.

brianc89 · 25-08-2023 7:36am

From the RO docs. There are more detailed drawings of the tracks themselves and exactly where lines connect, but this is useful.

Screenshot_2023-08-25-06-21-06-62_e2d5b3f32b79de1d45acd1fad96fbb0f.jpg

AngryLips · 25-08-2023 9:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023647#Comment_121023647

In the case of Sallins & Naas, it's just totally wrong to claim that Dart services will slow down mainline services due to the dual-track nature of that stretch of line. There are no intermediate stops between S&N and HH for Dart services to delay mainline trains. All it would need is for S&N to be reconfigured to include terminal platforms so that Dart trains don't block the mainline tracks while idling.

thomasj · 25-08-2023 12:31pm

The plan is that there will be more than 6 trains an hour Drumcondra-connolly . 3 an hour from Maynooth , 3 an hour from PPT line and allow for 1 or 2 hour extra for longer distance services.

thomasj · 25-08-2023 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121013451#Comment_121013451

My initial thoughts would be that the way it should be done is:

EMUs running between GCD and Hazelhatch - 3 an hour initally , and then whatever expansion through Drumcondra/Spencer Dock

BEMUs running between Heuston and Newbridge (with the DART using the siding) - 3 an hour .

densification · 25-08-2023 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024018#Comment_121024018

With the reconfigured four tracking, to allow Darts to access the PPT without conflict, the Slow lines will be the two North tracks and the fast lines the two south tracks.

Going from HH to SN, a Dart would have to cross over the Up main line to access the Down Line. Bearing in mind the Dart will be acceleration from 0mph up to a maximum of 90 mph on its batteries whilst InterCity trains will be passing non-stop at 100mph for now. Possibly 125 in a decade. Unless the track and station is reconfigured to be somewhat like Clongriffin, there would still be conflicting movements.

There's no way you can get D+ to SN without restricting capacity for fast services. Obviously you could extend the four tracking the SN easily enough but that's not on the table.

cgcsb · 25-08-2023 3:15pm

Im now hearing that DART+W will have its oral hearing last week of September. Metrolink hoping for a November date no word on any of the bus connects corridors.