DOJ firearms survey results.
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14-08-2023 11:44pm#1
The Irish deer commission put in a FOIA request for the survey results of the DOJ questionnaire Results in the below link.
Apart from a couple of bizarre replies like we don't want to license big game rifles here for safaris should we be so lucky to be able to go on one , but are happy just to let Fota Island and Dublin zoo have them, and we want to have a block put in our way going to the dist court in the form of an arbitration authority staffed by hand-picked anti-gun people it seems. As well as having our gunsmith carry insurance for work or repairs done. That will be a precedent in any Western country. But by and large, it is 95% positive in our favour the replies from predominately Male identifying 45/55 95% gun owners.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://irishdeercommission.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Survey-Results.pdf
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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I read it but find some of it bizarre!!!! There could be 70 percent strongly agree with something and on a lot of questions while 15 to 20 percent strongly disagree with the same question. It seems to be a bit of a trend in some of it. I wonder was it slightly tainted by people
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% never had a firearms licence and a % don't live here. Those will account for sone of the "negative" responses?
When I get a chance I must analyse the answers.
Overall, on initial reading of it, nothing to "beat" us with?
1925 respondents? Poor response from shooters of all denominations?
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Less than 2000 gun owners responded to this? PAThetic!!! But then again talking to some of the older guys they like anyone else found this survey as complex as anything,if you weren't a gun tech head so many decided it was too complex and didn't bother to fill it in.So maybe that was a plan all along too?
So 85 of the respondents dont have a cert... Well that at least is interesting if any anti ever pipes up about gun control and states "The majority of Irish people want guns banned" They are literally 0.0%of the %million of us if these figures are collated into the 5 million of us here on the island
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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While disappointing that less than 2,000 people completed the survey, the good news is that the results are unlikely to help Browne justify his personal agenda ....
Well done to those who took the few minutes to complete the survey. It's only a shame that more of our fellow licence holders didn't bother their ar$e$!
Thanks,
G.
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Well only for boards I wouldn't have known it existed. It was definitely flown (perhaps intentionally) under the radar. Couple that with the (again perhaps intentionally) obtuse language in the survey, I'm pleasantly surprised 2000 of us managed to make our way through the survey to its conclusion.
It'll be interesting to see which parts of the survey they cherry pick and which parts they strategically ignore.
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Same here. Only for Boards I would never have known about it.
That's a major problem in itself. Every club, range and organisation we have should have been emailing and texting all their members about it.
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Couldn't agree more, but then so should the info about the FEC.
A disturbing amount of licence holders are completely unaware of the FEC, even though it's implications and recommendations cover every single aspect of firearms ownership for every demographic, from the farmer with a single shotgun to a target shooter with dozen firearms.
Also, neither the NARGC or NASRPC called out the survey out over their social media(open to correction on this if someone has a link).
FUNI did, and some game clubs did as it filtered through the grapevine but the older orgs who either have member lists with email addresses, phone numbers etc or at least a social media presence should have been posting about this at the very least weekly til the end of the submission period.
Between the two Ns they have 13,000 followers just on Facebook, and the NARGC states their membership at 24,000 members total!
Why don't they try and martial some of that mass in the right direction, or at the very least keep their members informed of relevant current events.
Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.
S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized
S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted
Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered
S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted
Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)
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Totally agree 100%.
I would also add that a disturbing amount of licence holders are completely unaware of current basic licensing laws/requirements re storage of ammo separate from firearm and especially travelling with a firearm/ammo, etc, …….
I’ve seen lads going out hunting with firearm/mags/ammo on passenger seat, in passenger foot-well or usually thrown on back seat for all to see.
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Agreed. There is a reduced argument for the 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' point when the law itself is so convoluted that even senior AGS members can't explain it properly. Even a solicitor, unfamiliar with firearms cases, would need to read all the acts multiple times to figure out what the hell is actually allowed or not allowed or meant in some cases. Night vision issue being a prime example but it runs much deeper than that of course. The acts are confusing in some places such as notification of refusals.
Maybe one idea, is that the State, not anyone else, could provide a handbook (rules of the road style) for firearms holders. This could be held by RFDs and handed out with every new firearm purchase. A copy could also be easily posted to existing holders with every grant letter. Again, a committee made up from perhaps DOJ, AGS and people from the shooting side might make that work. Sadly, based on previous experience, such a positive undertaking would probably end up being diverted into some underhand effort to further hound legitimate firearms licencees and impose policies rather than helping to explain the actual legal situation or requirements to law abiding citizens that just want to comply.
Perhaps if ptb are reading then they might prove me wrong. I'd genuinely prefer that.
Of course I'm aware of the Commissioners Guidelines and that's a further reason to take a fresh approach based on law itself and good practice, not the personal opinion of individuals in power or the preferred organisational policy or aspirations of those that should enforce the law.
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Taking multiple points from posts here;
Maybe one idea, is that the State, not anyone else, could provide a handbook (rules of the road style) for firearms holders. This could be held by RFDs and handed out with every new firearm purchase. A copy could also be easily posted to existing holders with every grant letter. Again, a committee made up from perhaps DOJ, AGS and people from the shooting side might make that work. Sadly, based on previous experience, such a positive undertaking would probably end up being diverted into some underhand effort to further hound legitimate firearms licencees and impose policies rather than helping to explain the actual legal situation or requirements to law-abiding citizens that just want to comply.
When I started shooting at ten years of age here, back in Biblical times, AGS actually DID produce an A4 page of basic firearms safety rules that they issued once or twice with the old annual green paper license. So yes it could be done and I'll mention it at the next FURG meet. However, the trouble is with this legislation is it's so damn vague on a lot of things that it is left very much open to individual interpretation Eg the Looks like an assault rifle story. We have a case now of some lad being told to get a restricted license for his .22 Ruger PCR bolt-action as "it looks like an assault rifle" according to his local FO. Nothing about its 15-round mag capacity that would make it restricted mind... So unless this whole thing is tightened up and clear definitions of items and terms are laid down in law its kind of a waste of time, or will be looked on as such.
A disturbing amount of licence holders are completely unaware of the FEC, even though it's implications and recommendations cover every single aspect of firearms ownership for every demographic, from the farmer with a single shotgun to a target shooter with dozen firearms.
FACT! However, a lot of this problem is the demographics of the shooting population and the info channels. As seen from the FEC survey, we'll have to use as a yardstick for numbers until something better comes along. We are basically a bunch of old white guys in our 50/60s plus who are more than likely farmers . So probably not the type of folks who are going to be checking out Boards. ie or FB for any info on what's new in the Irish shooting world on a regular basis after a hard day's work growing stuff to feed the rest of us. Broad brush strokes here Nor are they likely to be gun club members or have much contact with either of the two "N organisations" So how do you inform them of what's going on? Apart from the odd article in the Irish Farmers Journal or Agriland, which like the old Irish Shooters Digest magazine are historical documents once they are printed and have got into someone's concerned hands in this day and age.
Also, neither the NARGC nor NASRPC called out the survey over their social media(open to correction on this if someone has a link).
The only crowd I know of that did anything online that is with FURG for their members was one of the deer hunting operations on filling the survey.
FUNI did, and some game clubs did as it filtered through the grapevine but the older orgs who either have member lists with email addresses, phone numbers etc or at least a social media presence should have been posting about this at the very least weekly til the end of the submission period.
Dan Curley head of the NARGC when interviewed by The Hunting Podcast lads had pointed out to him that this is the main complaint about NARGC. The lack of communication both downward and upwards and current in the NARGC structure and acknowledged it as well. It's terrible according to members. Surely in this day and age of texts and tweets[or X's nowadays?], one message of something important can be sent to all members within minutes to check their webpage or FB for the full story. So that way they avoid delays or forgotten or "not interesting to me so no one else will be either" message blocks on a local club level. This apparently has happened in some local gun clubs.No one was informed of this survey by the club committees or by the org itself.
The NASRPC... They put in a very good submission to the minister, but I'm surprised they didn't fight tooth&nail about the revocation of the semi-auto licenses.As this has now killed off at least two gallery rifle disciplines.M1 carbine is now stunted to those who have a pre-2015 license, and the Pistol calibre carbine, is dead before it ever came to term. Ditto any of the classic semi-auto disciplines. They definitely had a mandate from all their affiliated clubs to kill this dead. So what happened?
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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"So how do you inform them of what's going on?"
Every one of our addresses, eircodes and phone numbers are on Pulse. A notification via post or text wouldn't have been a massive undertaking IMO.
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It definitely went through the clubs in the nargc as Im in 2 clubs and I got messages regarding the fec and then a few reminding us to fill in the survey. I think another big problem here is people are still in the ' ah sure it is only kite flying it won't affect me mode' and others don't want to know about it.
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At a guess, you are under 40, have a FB account and maybe 1 or 2 email addresses, and maybe have accounts on TikTok or Instagram etc. The VAST majority of firearms cert holders are GenX or earlier, who went thru school without ever knowing what a computer was and having to walk a mile to put 10p in a phonebox and ask the local operator to connect you. See the problem now?
If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.
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Did you see a data protection notice anywhere on your application form with a box to tick allowing your consent for your info to be used for any such notification purposes?... Me neither.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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The only realistic way today is by social media however, not everyone lives their lives online, lots of 50/60+ old club members and not everyone has an e-mail address and I for one don't do FB, Twitter, Insta whatever, etc, etc.
Traditional snail mail is an option BUT hugely expensive at €1.30 a pop, I'm a member of a regional game group with 500+ members, it's just not economical to blow €650/700 on snail mail every time you need to pass info to members.
If you do spend that kind of bobs on snail mail, lots of lads go mad, you could have spend that on birds/ducks, equipment, etc, etc. your between a rock and a hard place and end of day at local level you cannot please everyone.
100% agree.
GenX, lol, lots of us are pre GenX at this stage.
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Hi,
I'm sure I saw some details on the survey, and also the FEC, on emails from both IFA Countryside (who produce a good, regular "newsletter" by email), and the Irish Deer Commission.
The NARGC (who I have typically found to be very, very, poor, did send an email, at the end of May). while I'm also fairly certain that Firearms United sent an email too (in addition to their messages on Facebook).
I'm honestly struggling to understand how so many claim to have known nothing, were it not for Boards - we all have a responsibility to ensure we keep informed in matters that are important to us, regarding our sport.
Everyone needs to check (now!) to ensure that they are set up to receive communications from their various representative bodies, insurers etc. Everyone also needs to ensure that they add the various email addresses to their contact lists / while lists, to ensure that emails aren't going into spam or trash folders. Then, go and help your fellow shooters to do the same, if they don't have the capability to do it themselves (although I honestly think that most can, as they certainly manage to use email and the Internet, when it suits them for other purposes, reardless of age or education level).
People need to put in a complaint, to any organisation that the are a member of, that didn't issue any form of communication. I'd also strongly suggest you consider moving to those that did act, and would immediately recommend IFA Countryside for insurance, for example.
Thanks,
G.
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The problem is too, if there is something immediate and pertinent in the news for one body, it might not be classified as such by the editor who is writing the newsletter,be it paper or cyber depending on their outlook and circulation. A potential semi-auto rifle ban mightn't feature in some lad's parish gun club newsletter when mink making hames of the pheasant pen is top news for them.
However national organisations and esp those under an umbrella group who are taking memberships to represent us should be on top of any utterance of intent by any minister, TD, councillor or anti-group on firearms or hunting-related matters within hours and be watching and doing a threat elevation as to whether it needs to be addressed officially, and do they need to call the ship to General quarters,or man battle stations. It's embarrassing, I think, that an umbrella group founded a year ago was slumbering on the issue of the new proposed legislation until about May this year when the issue of the "restricted to the location of licenses" issue came up,and galvanised them to action.
What you think might be relevant and trivial, might grow into something catastrophic for all of us on a national level and our leadership slumbering on such issues does no favours. I mean, why weren't the big orgs ringing into Newstalk or the Dept and every politician after James Browne announced that he wasn't including "the gun lobby " in the FEC?That's like saying you are excluding the AA from any plans for future traffic management in our cities.
We seriously need to up our game both on the organisational level and individual levels on information flows here.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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I'm one of the ones that didn't respond. I found too many double negatives, loaded questions and a general lack of knowledge on the subject from the author. There was a question about suitable calibres about foxes and I stopped at that point as it made no sense.
First they came for the socialists...
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Fair play, for being honest.
There's no doubt that some of the survey questions were quite confusing, and I'm of the view that was done on purpose. That said, there was a fair bit of chat about the questions here, and a couple of the groups also sent out suggested responses. Maybe put a question or two up here next time, even if only to get a sense for what other people might think (not to say that we aren't all free to make our own decisions etc.)
Onwards and upwards 😉
Thanks,
G.
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I agree that the questions were questionable, but FUNI offered a pro-forma answer sheet, why did none of the other organisations? and if not, why did their members not request the same.
This is the whole endemic reason that we cannot get change in Ireland, THEY lied to me and confused me, so i didn't vote, one way or the other, just to spite them
If you do not vote for change, then you are voting for the status quo, simple, that's why government love low turnouts, and try to befuddle the voting public, with double negatives, loaded questions and interconnected questions that have no relevance
BUT, failing or refusing to complete the questionnaire, as you and probably 188,000 other firearms cert holders did, just leads the PTB to think that they can ride roughshod over the rest of us.
Remember, that if you don't say stop at the top of your voice, you are saying go ahead
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.
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I agree that the questions were questionable, but FUNI offered a pro-forma answer sheet, why did none of the other organisations? and if not, why did their members not request the same.
It was available to all members of FURG to distribute to their organisations, as it was a joint effort, with about 95% consensus of answers. The only org other than FUNI, that FIK did anything was the IDS with an online Zoom call to its members who wanted help in filling this in. Ask your leaders folks as to why not.
BUT, failing or refusing to complete the questionnaire, as you and probably 188,000 other firearms cert holders did, just leads the PTB to think that they can ride roughshod over the rest of us.
Before we judge everyone too harshly, ask were the members of all these different orgs under the FURG umbrella informed of this survey by their reps? If not why not? Was it explained to them? Did they have an opportunity to contact any reps to ask questions on this? Also a lot of people didn't fill it in because of the utterly horrible way it was worded and seemingly deliberately designed to confuse,or put together by complete amateurs in the DOJ.So many no doubt thought it wiser not to fill it in as it might be more damaging putting in wrong answers that looked right or vice versa.
I put this down again to failure to communicate, and indifference on many levels across all organisations to bring this to members' attention for whatever reasons. Or simply,if you are not on SM or a member of a GC or org how would you know of any changes happening,let alone about this survey?
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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Grizzly45: Before we judge everyone too harshly, ask were the members of all these different orgs under the FURG umbrella informed of this survey by their reps? If not why not? Was it explained to them? Did they have an opportunity to contact any reps to ask questions on this? Also a lot of people didn't fill it in because of the utterly horrible way it was worded and seemingly deliberately designed to confuse,or put together by complete amateurs in the DOJ.So many no doubt thought it wiser not to fill it in as it might be more damaging putting in wrong answers that looked right or vice versa.
What ? , you mean that they were just following orders? or does that only apply in the 30's/40's till Nuremburg ?
Post edited by Cass onIf you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.
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Lost me here now. Who was" just following orders?" The Orgs had the info and the survey if they are under the FURG umbrella.So if it didn't reach their members,whose at fault there?Not the members. If people arent on boards or social media, and not gunclub members how are they to know about this?
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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NARGC sent out 2 emails on 18th May 2023, one alerted members to the existence of the DOG online consultation and the other, which was 19 pages long, contained suggested answers to each question.
They send out a reminder email on 31st May alerting people to the 2nd June deadline.
I wonder what more they could have done.
Post edited by bluezulu49 on1 -
Possibly keep pestering their members weekly or bi-weekly by social media to fill in this form; if they had problems with answers, email them with queries.Granted all of our orgs are new to this type of" cyber warfare"but NARGC being the 2nd biggest operation here in Ireland and with a paid executive/staff I presume, and the keystone of FURG, as well as an elected Senator shouldn't they have a finger on the pulse of Irish politics in relation to gun ownership?
Just my take.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
3
