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Redrawing county boundaries

  • 25-08-2023 9:20pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    I heard an interview on Newstalk a few months ago where the possibility of changing the county boundaries was discussed, particularly in the potential context of a united Ireland. Reasons to change the current structure include the fact they were drawn up by the English often with disregard to Gaelic or diocese boundaries and that they no longer adequately represent the areas they cover.

    My solution is as follows:

    Scrap the counties of Laois, Offaly, Wicklow, Cavan, Leitrim, Westmeath and Derry. Laois is partitioned between Kildare, Carlow and Kilkenny, Offaly between Kildare, Meath and Tipperary, Wicklow between Dublin and Carlow.

    Meath to be enlarged to include all of Westmeath and part of Offaly.

    Cavan and Leitrim merged to create Breffny.

    Tyrone extended to include southeast of Derry. The city of Derry west of the Foyle goes to Donegal, Coleraine east of the Bann to Antrim and the remainder of Derry becomes the county of Coleraine.

    Galway split, Connemara is a separate county while the east becomes its own county together with south Roscommon.

    Kerry is also split with north of the Maine remaining Kerry and the rest, including Beara from Cork becomes the county of Desmond.

    The remained of the counties remain unchanged.

    On a provincial level, the four provinces remain but Louth is returned to Ulster and the old territory of Cavan returned to Connaught as part of Breffny.

    I think this is pretty much perfect, it aligns with historic borders and makes sense on the ground. What do you think?

    Here is a map of my proposal:




«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You keep coming up with these ridiculous proposals for changing Ireland without ever explaining what problem they are going to solve.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    How is the above map ridiculous? It’s literally the perfect Ireland in terms of local subdivisions. I do not believe my map can be improved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Why?

    What is the point?

    What is it fixing?

    Name a tangible benefit that there would be from this proposal beyond reducing the number of county councils which if that were the aim the disparity in county sizes in your proposal makes no sense still.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    Mod: no image dumping!

    Post edited by Seth Brundle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,618 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Good luck to you and Eoin O'Malley, you are going to need it.

    A quixotic enterprise if I ever saw one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,618 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Well you might ask.

    Your proposal you make the case.

    No offence intended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Because it is pointless & unnecessary, fixing something that does not need to be fixed because it is not broken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    It represents a maturing of the Irish nation as part of the process of creating an all-island Republic, ridding ourselves of the borders placed on the island both internationally and internally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I love it when threads dial the insanity and stupidity up to 11 in the opening post 🤣

    OP, good luck is all I'm going to say.

    Funnily enough I don't think gaining the endorsement of the users of boards will further your plan (and it sounds like you won't get it) but go ahead anyway, all you need is to believe in yourself 😉

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,294 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    It's a total bag of cr@p. Fixing something that's not broken for no reason whatsoever and with a twisted view of the socio economic realities of most of the country.

    Has to be a poor attempt at a wind up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    Not a wind up, I put a lot of research and consideration into historical Gaelic territorial boundaries etc to make my map.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,444 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    As with your other threads you show no reason that would persuade even a small minority to bother reading it. Beyond football the county has little or no impact on peoples lives. And any politician will tell you you do not mess with peoples sports.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    The reasoning in my view is clear. An independent all-island republic must make visible changes to the impositions of the neighbouring island to truly carve our own place amongst the nations of Europe as opposed to being a breakaway district of GB. That goes for the political structure as well as local government, both of which are holdovers from the union.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,870 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    So say we accept that they're "natural boundaries" despite nobody younger than the age of 500 remembering them. What benefits will we accrue from these new county borders?

    P.S. OP you hardly post under a different name in the soccer forum? There's another poster there who has a similar bizarre faith in a fantasy scheme with as little reality backing it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    What political structures are a holdover from the UK. A more than cursory look will reveal we have vastly different political processes to the UK

    We have a political process enshrined in an actual written constitution, which is kept relevant through a process of public referendums. By contrast the UK has no real constitution and most processes there are by convention, which is vulnerable to a government willing to defy convention

    Our voting process is also vastly more democratic and generally ensures minority viewpoints are given weight respective of their representation within the population. The UK instead is largely a two party system and is vulnerable to gerrymandering and many districts where an opposing vote to the incumbent is effectively useless

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Rejecting centuries old administrative districts that have become the norm for all citizens of Ireland cause "the English made them" is actually the very opposite of maturity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Hmmm, Showing how we have matured as a nation by changing things because "they changed them" and going to something from hundreds of years ago to show that we are forward looking and a progressive nation by regressing.

    Sounds like a perfectly reasonable, balanced, mature, inclusive and progressive approach......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    County boundaries should be left as they are. However, local authorities should be regionalised as they are an incredible wasteful duplication across very small areas. They’re an extremely expensive public works scheme



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Depends on how may regions you see, Provinces would not be regional enough as there is a huge difference between more and less populated parts of each province and a certain amount of local knowledge is necessary when it comes to area's like planning and local strategic development, a provincial authority would likely favour development of the populated centres at the detriment of the less so because population equates to votes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,294 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Then you wasted a lot of time on a pointless exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭rock22


    @dublincc2 "Not a wind up, I put a lot of research and consideration into historical Gaelic territorial boundaries etc to make my map."

    Did you really make 'your map'? Because from what I can see it is remarkably like the linked map With a few Marker lines drawn on it.

    Map : Interesting map. The historical Barony divisions in Ireland - Infographic.tv - Number one infographics & data Data visualization source



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,286 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    This. For example, the combined populations of Longford and Leitrim is less than the official capacity of croke park. But there are two separate local authorities with duplication of roles etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Instead of trotting out empty rhetoric about perfidious Albion n all that, it'd help if you at least outlined the economic and practical benefits of merging or redrawing counties. You say you did lots of research, so outline where the benefits are for the communities that exist - Cos you can't just unset what has become the norm cross a century(ies) for the sake of twinkly eyed nationalistic nostalgia. There's a status quo that exists, and wouldn't necessarily welcome change for its own sake.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'm curious when you say your proposal aligns with historic borders, exactly what period of time do you refer to in history. And what exact evidence you have of what the borders might have been in this period.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    Even the county boundaries today are incorrect, for example in the news today there’s a story about a fatal car accident in Clonmel, universally reported as having occurred in Co. Tipperary when in fact the road where it happend was south of the Suir, so it happened in Co. Waterford.

    Towns like Drogheda, Athlone, Coleraine, Newry, Carrick-on-Suir, Carrick-on-Shannon and Ballina are similarly split along rivers and instead of forming cross boundary town councils, they add the section across the river to the county which the main part of the town lies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The OPs map is stupid but the system is cracked if not broken.

    Just using an example I am familiar with Limerick City. The villages of South Clare are far more connected to Limerick City than let's say Kilmallock or Abbeyfeale which got merged with Limerick City council based on ancient county lines.

    The GAA is often used as a scaremongering tactic in these debates but the UK historical and administrative county system shows the easy way around this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The county boundaries & other administrative borders as currently constituted are quite correct - they are defined legally on sets of maps maintained by the state. The fact that some people & media are mistaken about them means nothing.

    You still haven't clarified what period of Irish history you propose to establish your claim of authenticity on??? And hard evidence as to borders then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,294 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Do you not think that has been pointed out to you several times already ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,814 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    My favourite ridiculous bit is having Coleraine town not in Coleraine county.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Again. Can you at least give some Political or Economic reasons why the county lines should be redrawn, beyond some notional sense of historical tradition? River boundaries might make neater maps but it's one thing to include a whole town within a county, without wholesale rejig of entire regions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    It should be relocated west of the Bann as it was before the plantations of the 17th century. Therefore it being mostly in the county.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,814 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    So, do you want the river rerouted, or the buildings and roads moved across to the west of the river. Bearing in mind most of the town, including the centre, main retail district, town hall, university and schools are east of the river.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,294 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge




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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Why on earth would any urban planners revert to 17th century boundaries?

    Respectfully, but is this serious and did your research actually end at 1900? You seem to be willfully ignoring the make up of Ireland's urban centres as they exist now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,882 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    An awful lot of effort, energy, inconvenience and money…. For the benefit of nobody….



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,286 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    How many towns would you find in Ireland where the majority of the population *want* to transfer to another county?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    And that's the problem. South Kilkenny people don't want to be Waterford and south Clare people don't want to be Limerick but in terms of administration it makes perfect sense.

    I honestly wouldn't give a shte if you called the Limerick city urban area the "Shannon region" or some other crap but it makes more sense than some NIMBY plonker rural councillor from Ballylander or Rathkeale getting to have an opinion on city matters when a councillor from Cratloe can't.

    You might not have to "transfer" at all but rather make new counties like Cumbria did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    So you can't quote any sort of historical reference for your proposal. It's just made up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭dublincc2


    No. It’s based on historical precedence and the reality on the ground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭Psychedelic Hedgehog


    It'll be a fcuking cold day in hell before I accept forced reunification with Meath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,489 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I'm going to take a wild guess that the OP doesn't happen to be from any of the counties that they are proposing to eliminate with a stroke of their pen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Right, so the OP wants rivers to be the county boundaries, but not always, just in some cases, others are still pretty much random, wants to join some counties together whilst leaving others as they were.

    Being from Louth I'm quite happy that we have been left alone in this masterplan for the redivision of counties other than shipping us to Ulster.

    But lets be realistic, if you were re dividing the country why would the smallest county in the country be left as with its own county council whilst merging larger counties into one with one council?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    We have the typical double the size of Dublin Lebensraum factor in full effect. From a Dublin poster what a surprise.

    I don't know about many of the supposed historical claims. However I know that Carlow once contained large parts of present County Wicklow, which was not founded until 1601, the last county in Ireland. Previously most of Carlow was controlled by the Wexford Kinsella clan in medieval times.

    There certainly is no historical record of Dublin ruling over these regions. In contrast the Kinsellas actually ruled over Dublin for a period during the 11th century having captured the town from the previous Viking rulers.

    Dublin is more than big enough, adding a rural county area with many mountainous regions won't alleviate any of Dublins current issues.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Prove it. Show some detail about these "reality on the ground" that the merges will bring economic benefit to the communities and areas proposed for changing. Historical precedence means nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    For me the obvious changes would be west galway joining with mayo and in Munster north Kerry joining Limerick and south Kerry and west cork. There are stark cultural and historical splits in the different regions of galway and Kerry. There's also a strong football/hurling divide in Kerry and galway.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,977 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Best response so far 👍🤣

    I'm honestly surprised this thread is still going, the mods must be in a patient mood today

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,497 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    They shouldn’t change the county boundaries. But the local authorities should be re arranged dropping the inefficient and frankly stupid county arrangement. At least two or three county units or rename the local authority areas like in the North



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,870 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    I get the impression this is a windup but are you not contradicting yourself there? In your first paragraph you say any land south of the Suir is in Waterford (which is false), but then in the second say that towns straddling rivers mean county borders are moved across the river (which is true).



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