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Nurse Lucy Letby found guilty of murdering seven babies

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    You're were the one that said all the jury thought was that he was guilty because the guards arrested him.

    If the evidence wasn't there you should have aquitted. So either the evidence was there or it wasn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,258 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    The evidence presented was the video. The jury decided that this was enough to convict him. A single juror cannot acquit someone. What exactly would you have had me do? "your honor I dont agree with the other 11 jurors, so ignore them and take my verdict"?

    BTW I'm quite clearly stating that I didnt believe the evidence was there, I cannot coerce the other jurors into changing their opinions to match mine, this didnt step them from pressurizing me into changing my vote, right up to the point the judge dropped the unanimity requirement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Ok, so the evidence was accepted by the majority of the jurors, then that's fair enough. Convicted correctly

    The way you said it earlier it was like the jurors didn't care about the evidence and just presumed he was guilty because Gardai arrested him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 930 ✭✭✭lumphammer2


    This leads to another point ... the judge should not be allowed to reset the goalposts ... I feel that when the sentence is this severe it should be unanimity only ... a majority rule is fine for putting someone away for 10 years and the like but not this ... if there is someone disagreeing then there is a reason to err on the side of caution ... it is clear the court wanted to send her away for life and that was it !! Rightly or wrongly !! Personally I do not think whole life sentences should exist ... with the possible exception of terrorists ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,882 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    It’s not an exact science.

    In addition … Some psychologists are just bad at what they do, don’t care too much or are scam artists….

    like any jobs….

    Especially when psychologists in Ireland are not regulated which I’m reading, they are not. So, get qualified and have at it….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,258 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo



    What I said earlier, and reiterate now, is that the only evidence presented was the video. There was no way anyone could identify anyone, even themselves, from the quality of the video.

    The other 11 jurors decided that the police knew what they were doing and wouldnt arrest the wrong guy so convicted him on that basis.

    He was not convicted correctly at all in my opinion, hence my issue with jury convictions on circumstantial evidence.

    Being at the mercy of a jury of my peers is a terrifying prospect after what I experienced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    I find it hard to believe that - having been on a jury, you’re dealing with mostly very independently thinking people - there was probably one person on my jury that didn’t feel comfortable talking too much he but did listen to everything said by others and eventually he gave his opinion - I just think he wasn’t used or didn’t like speaking in a group which is fair enough.

    If you were on my jury we would have listened to what you had to say- but in addition, everyone gave their independent view on what evidence they felt was important in their decision making- not once did anyone say “the guards think it’s him so it must be him” - I think had they said that, they would have been quickly objected to and asked to refocus on the evidence



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    So, they didn't convict on the evidence then? You seem very confused.

    They convicted on their idea that the Gardai wouldn't arrest someone who wasn't guilty, which means they didn't convict on the evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    That's grim stuff isn't it.

    Maternity hospitals are full of good people, good experiences, and great staff.

    33 offences of that nature to have happened in a children's hospital is truly awful.

    There has to be a lot of that happening at those rates.

    There has to be a 'why' for that behaviour. It completely goes against the grain of human nature. No one dreams of being a child abuser when they grow up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I long for the day when people accept that human nature is very different to our societal expectations (which are in part totally unnatural).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We are products of both. Sometimes nurture is the key which unlocks what's already present.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Part of the reason she killed so many and attempted to kill more is due to the fact that when concerns from others were not taking seriously and she was allowed to go on working it was not down to her brilliance but others not wanting to bring there beautiful hospital into the spotlight



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Yeah it’s quite frightening and mind opening- The academic paper quoted mentions a collection of “personality disorders” as the potential causes- the human condition is a complex thing. Even if a “diagnosis” was ultimately obtained for this nurse, I’d doubt any or at least many, would be any the wiser.

    The only thing this study has shown me is that the rate of occurrence is frightening and quite likely, babies have died under circumstances that have been deemed unknown causes but not suspicious where the actual cause is more sinister.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    “Human nature” is animalistic, whether you like it or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I don’t doubt that. But I had responded to a post about empathy and her ability to fit in with expectations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Just watched a piece on youtube about this case. Its called the Casual Criminalist (its also a podcast). Absolutely horrifying. The part where she kept going into the facebook of the parents of I think her first murder and send them a card and getting back a thank you card which she kept it as a trophy as a picture on her phone. Showing no emotion while she heard testimony. The only time she showed any type of emotion was when she was talking about herself.


    Has anything been done to the senior management or hospital trust who only concern was the hospitals standing. I am guessing a few civil cases will come from this also. She is evil and deserves life.


    For those who are concerned because it was "circumstantial" evidence should google the difference between circumstantial vs direct evidence. You will quickly realize how much evidence in trials in just that circumstantial.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    How do you know she couldn't become a danger to others. It could be possible if she thought she could get away with it she might try it with someone else. Also she was a threat she is a threat o babies. Joe O Reilly may not be a threat to anyone else should we just let him go (there was a program about him yestesterday so was in my head).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,882 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    she murdered members of the general public…. How can you say she doesn’t pose a threat ?

    there is no incentive ? Well there never was, she didn’t plead guilty…

    better off not finding out her ‘ reason ‘ . Keep her locked up for all eternity, then the reason doesn’t matter.

    the reason for a whole life tariff is to protect society…. Nothing authoritarian about it…you’ve chosen to use the wrong noun.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff




  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭goodlad_ourvlad


    I think I'm in the mid 30's episodes of the Mail's podcast on this, the amount of information to absorb is staggering.

    I was wondering though, why do they name pretty much everyone on the shifts she worked on, except a select few who applied for anonymity (this is excluding the children of course) ...

    Doctor A etc... I'm assuming he is probably trying to salvage a marriage at this point, and agreed to give evidence on the basis of anonymity so his career isn't dragged through the mud either, after saying he'd trust Lethby with his kids etc... ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    Intergenerational abuse. The abused child becomes the abusing parent. Thankfully not always.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    Maybe you can request anonymity?

    That doctor A testifying rattled her good and proper. Bet she thought she had him wrapped.

    There's a lot to take in in that podcast.



  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭bejeezus


    You seem as interested in her psychology as I am! Just an observation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭goodlad_ourvlad


    yes, you can, because they did... but, it's at the judges discretion.

    I'm trying to understand the rationale as to what would allow for this and what circumstances do, in what should be a public case, where strangely about 90% of everyone else involved is named.

    I have to take a break from it for a few days, I've shot through nearly 40 episodes, very well put together, except the piano theme tune in the first 30 or so episodes, I'm sick of it :-D



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭goodlad_ourvlad


    Her Dad has an element to him that I just didn't like, and the fact he got involved with her disciplinary etc... house bought for her, she didn't seem to have any male companionship and if allegations are true, she did terrible things to gain attention from another male.... there is definitely a father issue somewhere along the line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    He stayed over with her sometimes too. He stayed over the night she was raided by cops. No mention of the wife staying over either. That struck me as a bit odd



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    They are animalistic by nature, until they are taught not to be



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,258 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Well one of us was actually there and one of us is speculating so...

    Maybe its possible that everyone is different and that your jury was different than mine?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,258 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Definitely someone is confused!


    I don't know how I can make it any clearer for you.

    The jury are in a room on their own. They are free to interpret the evidence how they so wish and come to a conclusion and as such arrive at a verdict.

    One of my major failings is that I can't read others minds, so I dont know exactly what their reasoning was to come to their individual verdicts, but I know what they discussed during deliberations and I know what the presented evidence was and I know what the final verdict was.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    The ma is a bit odd too. Weird outburst in court upon conviction. Was there some trauma around Letbys birth? I've heard That can have lasting effects in certain cases



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    I'd like to understand why.

    I'm the kind of person who's watched mindhunter a few times now. Fascinating to think that by observing and understanding the worst of criminals, we can learn and apply that learning to make the world safer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    It’s more I find it hard to believe rather than I don’t believe you. Did people give their reasons for choosing guilty?

    If you all gave the decision a good discussion and consideration then the verdict is what it is- nearly a dozen people were happy with the testimony of the witnesses and the evidence presented - it’s not just the cctv I’d imagine that was the evidence but what was also said in testimony under oath in court - how long was the trial?



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭goodlad_ourvlad


    a lot of what made me think she was guilty, was her cross examination during her defence.

    a lot of the information presented by the prosecution during their time started to make sense in the direction of what they accused.

    she tripped herself up numerous times and lied about substantial timelines etc... IMO.

    I really feel she is a disturbed person who doesn't want to believe what she did (or just acknowledge it out loud).

    The handover sheets from over 100 other babies during her time as a student elsewhere being kept as mementos was a bit odd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    I bet they are thoroughly investigating any patients who's paperwork they found in her house



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It would have to have been a considerable trauma with no repair and ongoing environmental challenges. In saying that maybe not. All we can do is speculate as to what motivated Letby and what type of person she is. It's not so strange that outwardly to others she appeared bland and kind even. I imagine she has the capacity for kindness and consideration. I don't feel the self others saw was a deliberately act on her part.

    If you imagine yourself to be a circle and within are all your bits and pieces. Feelings thoughts etc. You have doors as well which difficult experiences will lie behind and maybe for compartmentalising.

    Lucy is a similar circle filled with feelings and thoughts, but also darkness and rage and hurt of such levels that it's destructive. She destroyed lives and she destroyed herself. More complexities as well of course given what we now know.

    Nowhere in your circle (assuming) or Lucy's is a space for deliberately pretending to be nice all the while having a laugh at those who you have "taken in".

    That's just one way I've thought about Lucy Letby and I'm probably wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    I understand how juries work.

    And I know they have to be persuaded by the evidence presented at trial. You said they just found the person guilty because they believed the gardai wouldnt arrest him, if it wasn't him.

    Then you said they were happy with the CCTV footage.

    Now, you don't know what they thought at all!

    Not surprised you didn't bring it to the attention of the judge 🙄



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 786 ✭✭✭cap.in.hand.


    A podcast 'british nurse to worst child serial killer ever-the full story of Lucy letby' just a day old and 1 HR 47min is very good apart from female presenter putting on her makeup during it...it seems letby was part of staff that were sent on a safety course that included the dangers of babies or anyone having a air embolism in their blood stream and other dangers I presume that would be detrimental to health of babies....this course was 2 weeks before the first baby "baby A died under her care... that's amazing information.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Be thankful I used circles and not dodecahedrons 😁😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    She's also a capable adult, responsible for her own choices in life.

    Not only did she choose to kill kids but she chose to do so in a very cunning manner, where it is almost impossible to be caught.

    I mean, if she killed these kids in a quantity that aligned with the expected annual deaths, then she would never have been caught (probably)

    It got good to her and she thought she was invincible, until the other staff began to think the unthinkable.

    Did you ever watch the series called Dexter?

    Letby would have been a prime target to be strapped to his chair



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    There's so much of that type of evidence in this case. Prosecution lawyer KC took apart her story completely, and her defence had literally nothing left to counter with



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 581 ✭✭✭dbas


    I'd say she thought she was gonna get away with it. Her defence was- I didn't do it.

    It seems like she underestimated the prosecution lawyer completely. I'm not even sure she had to take the stand and testify herself.

    I wonder did her lawyer advise against testifying, as the other side would get their chance to cross examine her also. He picked her apart by all accounts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    If she owns a house/car she won’t be needing either again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,258 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    It was 3 days. The testimony was from the arresting guards, there was no other evidence other than the CCTV.


    Again, the argument put forward for the guilty verdict was that, despite the CCTV being next to useless, "the guards know what they are doing" oh and another statement was "they have special tools to clean up the video, so they know it was him".

    I would also say that 11 of the jurors were what I would call peers. I was the outlier in my opinion.

    I really wish I was making this up. It scared the bejesus out of me.



    /edit

    trial was 3 days, I was on duty for a few days before being picked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,258 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    They dont "have to be persuaded by the evidence"

    They should be, but if you can tell me how that is enforced I'm all ears.

    I honestly dont understand how you cant follow this, its pretty simple.

    I cannot tell you what each person actually thought of the CC tv evidence. What I can tell you is that they convicted a man where the only evidence presented by the prosecution was the CC tv footage. When I brought up to them that the footage was next to useless their argument was as I described multiple times. "the police know what they are doing and wouldnt have arrested the wrong person"


    There was zero point to the trial as 11 of the jury used the fact that the police arrested a man as evidence of his guilt.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Frankly these so-called jurors belong in gaol for that.



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