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UK air traffic control hit by network-wide failure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Karppi


    NATS, the UK's Air Navigation Service Provides, said in a statement: "We are currently experiencing a technical issue and have applied traffic flow restrictions to maintain safety. Engineers are working to find and the fix the fault. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause."



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭long_b


    No information to add but today's a Bank AHoliday in UK

    Are people thinking possible cyber attack ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Astartes


    It's also the busiest day of the year for UK Aviation. Putin up to his old tricks again!?





  • Considerable impact on Dublin Airport. Anything using UK airspace seems to be affected. Quite a few cancelled flights now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    EI-NSC was on the DUB-LHR-NOC-LHR-DUB rotation today, but due to the ATC issues it seems it went NOC-DUB instead of attempting to go back to LHR.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,180 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Appears things are ramping up a bit again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    My Aer Lingus flight got cancelled out of Heathrow back to Cork today and earliest flight I got offered was Wednesday (waitlisted for tomorrow and that was only after I pushed that I had Concierge status).

    Managed to get a Ryanair flight out of Gatwick then by looking myself



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Same here when I finally managed to reach someone, I got told earliest Wednesday evening which is crazy giving that they sell tickets on the Wednesday morning flights.

    Plus there was no assistance in LHR.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Ya, was tempted to just go to Heathrow and hope but then saw one from Gatwick so took a shot on that



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    I would say these systems are air gapped and not on the internet. It would take a very high level attacker to get to these systems. Its possible but rare.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Imagine all the airlines going to claim extraordinary circumstances and not pay out too here



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    The way especially Aer Lingus dealt with this is really bad.

    An hour ago, or so BA started selling seats to both Cork and Dublin across multiple flights tomorrow while people still did not get their canceled flights rescheduled and Aer Lingus Website said, "no flights".

    Now Aer Lingus website shows also open flights but several people I know have problems to change their booking online and are hanging in the phone queue.

    I called again, got a confused agent who wanted to charge me extra for making the change and when I told her I see that they are selling seats for less than I originally paid (I kid you not) she after multiple times on hold managed to get me on the first flight tomorrow to Cork.

    She was stressed and you could hear agents in the background having a bad time, I remained calm and helped her through finding the right flights and while it took a while she managed to get it sorted but I guess I was lucky that I checked the webpage and did know what I wanted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    I dunno. Like as poster just said there, Aer Lingus were quoting Wednesday morning (did to me and others) for a flight home and are now selling flights back tomorrow so there was clearly capacity (unless their website is broken).

    To me, airlines should sort their passengers and they can go chase UK air traffic or whoever for what they've lost.

    I mean in my case, I found an alternative route home, Aer Lingus did not find that for me. I know EU261 is a bit vague on should an airline find a way home on another airline (I think they should), then can argue Aer Lingus didn't do that.

    Also, even outside of EU261, there's generally a right to care from an airline to a passenger and I'd very strongly say Aer Lingus are not doing that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    100% agree on right to care etc but just don’t think EU261 will cover this.


    if they are putting pax on later flights when earlier options exist, that’s not on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Ya, probably, I do think whatever about the 250 part etc, I do think flight/accom/food costs should be covered. Like if Aer Lingus said they can't bring you home until Wednesday like they did with me, then hotel costs for those 2 extra nights should be covered (reasonably anyway).



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    Aer Lingus will claim "extraordinary circumstance" and hence not be required to pay any compensation.


    BUT if the delay is over 2 hours, they still need to offer assistance under UK law and here is where Aer Lingus clearly failed (at least in my case).

    The Civil Aviation Authority is clear in this, and they define it as

    • two free phone calls, faxes or emails (often by refunding the cost of your calls)

    • free meals and refreshments appropriate to the delay (often in voucher form)

    • free hotel accommodation and hotel transfers if an overnight stay is required.

    And giving how Aer Lingus was not able to provide help at the airport and the contact center in some cases only answered calls way after 2100 it's clear that they did not offer assistance so I did it myself and will provide reasonable receipts.

    Also giving how most of the hotels in LHR shot up to over 500£ this is going to be fun to claim. And that for hotels usually going for 99£.


    Issues happen but the way Aer Lingus handled this is bad, not to mention trying to charge people for rebooking canceled flights and suddenly selling tickets for cheaper prices than the day before while telling people the earliest is Wednesday.


    The 0920 LHR to ORK had an Aerspace seat for 165£ available, which was cheaper than several other fares during the whole day! Some of the fares during the day were down to as low as 63£ for the late evening flight.


    They changed my flight to a flight where the fare for the same booking class is 50% of what I paid and wanted to have a change fee!


    It is going to be interesting to see what Aer Lingus is going to do about this when it comes to refunds and complaints about how the rebooking worked.


    I feel for the call center people, they clearly had a bad day but why management was not present in LHR with information is unbelievable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Ya, I'll try to claim back for my Ryanair flight or at least the fare difference as that was the only way I was getting home today.

    Probably get nothing, cos I can understand the extraordinary circumstances bit but found information and customer service was completely lacking today (and I've Concierge status due to Aerclub so didn't even have the hour long wait times that others did on call)



  • Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Not much mention of a similar system outage impacting the Rome ATC area of Italy, same day, flight planning but later in the afternoon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    So funny enough this morning's 0920 to Cork had open seats and a lot of people from the canceled afternoon/evening flight on it.

    But speaking to some passengers they also got told "Wednesday" initial and had to show up this morning just to demand to get on board.

    Aer Lingus really did a bad job handling this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭goodlad_ourvlad


    It had impact, but not to the extent as the UK system going down.

    Due to the amount of traffic originating/terminating in the UK, the size of London and Scottish FIR's combined affecting a large amount of flight routes, and over 15 airports directly affected, many similar size or bigger than Rome Airport, thats what led to the congestion issues.... last I looked last night on their site, NATS has handled just under 2,000 flights that day... compared to the 6,600 they were expecting, or the 5,500-6,000 they usually handle on a daily basis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Bear in mind nearly all TATL traffic from Central Europe is going to transit the London/Scottish FIR at some point. You can duck around France and get into Breast/Shannon FIR if you happy to pay for the extra gas.

    All flights from Ireland to Europe with the exception of Portugal and Spain (if they take the distance hit and have the kit/training for T9) will either enter the London FIR at North Wales or South Wales to transit



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Yup, like I'm Concierge so one of the benefits of that is a guaranteed seat on a full flight and all they could was waitlist me for this morning. Them actually having space on it then just takes the piss



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    guaranteed seat on a full flight 

    "If a flight is fully booked we will guarantee you a confirmed reservation on the flight. This benefit applies on a full fare Economy Class and must be requested a minimum of 24 hours in advance." Max of 2 members per flight can avail and the full Y fare is due (~550 euro on a EU flight)



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    I pretty much asked can they put me in any flight back to Ireland from London, and best they could do was waitlist me for a flight that turns out had empty seats. Id have gone to any airport so I'd call bs on both those concierge seats being taken on any flight they had going up until Wednesday morning. Never mind that I had to actually push for it and it wasn't offered immediately



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,436 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    Preliminary reasoning out. Not a hack or anything of the sort. The system apparently received some flight data it didn't like and suspended automatic processing so no incorrect safety-related information could be presented to an air traffic controller.





  • Registered Users Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    And at around 2040 BA started to sell loads of seats on the Tuesday LHR - ORK flights.


    And then around 2130 Aer Lingus did the same but with no seats on the EI711 anymore beside 1 AERSPACE.

    I did forget to take a screenshot of all that availability because I was on the phone while it happend but I got a screenshot of the "last available" seats in AERSPACE which I wanted as I wanted to go home (and I had AERSPACE booked anyhow, for a higher fare none the less).


    Plus, on the actual flight 1 C was empty (so where some other seats further down) so titan18 should have had no problems being on that.

    Aer Lingus clearly was playing games, or they just made all flights available with the original loads/fares once it became clear the flights would happen and did not move people until either people contacted them or they got time over night to move people. That is the only way that there were so cheap fares available.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭Yggr of Asgard


    That would explain some of the data that I saw for a friend's flight, where the planned departure from LCY around 1640 suddenly moved to 0010 the next day and a 1945 departure to 0020 next day (for the same aircraft) which at the same time was scheduled to arrive at 1610 into LCY.

    Shortly after I discovered that (which made no sense as that late no flights will go) I saw my other similar things on alternative flights between LHR and other desitinations and than shortly after that they started canceling flights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Ya, they have handled this poorly. Probably not the only one who spent a ton of money and time trying to get through to them too.

    Id say fair enough if their customer service people did the best they could to get people on earliest flights out but they didn't.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,930 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    Looks like they were hacked on Sky there saying the issue was caused by aircraft data received.



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