Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

A developer only makes profit on the sale of a property. What has profit of making/supplying materials got to do with it?

And how would they make more money selling brick & mortar homes compared to modular, if modular is cheaper to actually build (according to you)?

If they reduce their build cost, but keep their sale price the same, they make more profit not less. This is really basic stuff here, that you struggle with it speaks volumes.

What is appropriate? If11% was fine in 21 why does it need to double in 2023

Not only has it doubled on percentage terms if all the inputs have increased substantially the doubling of margin is far greater in monetary terms.

Add in the fact that you have one dominant buyer, should this not lead to a discount of some kind.

Taxpayer is being fleeced and in the process there own housing costs are being increased substantially

Then why are they paying corporation tax on it and more to the point why are they paying 15.3% more corpo tax on it than the year prviously? One thing we do know is companies have several ways of limiting their exposure on paying tax. So I am sorry but it does point to an increase in profits there is no other explanation, I couldnt give a crap about their margins, they are taking 15.3% more home in their back pockets than last year and then lobby our government saying they are all in the poor house

I said profits I never said anything about their profit margins. Having said that look at it this way ask the question has construction activity increased significantly in the last year according to constructions PMIs and Outputs they have not its the opposite we are in a contraction for construction so margins be damned they would need to be building a hell of a lot more dwellings for the numbers to match and for your argument to hold true and according to both the construction outputs and PMIs this is not happening construction for 10 of the last 12 months is contracting and construction outputs form Q1 of 2023 is down over 2% from Q1 2022 and yet they are making more profit the numbers don't correlate

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/construction-pmi

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/construction-output

The 11% in 2021 was based on apartments

The 22% is likely based more on houses sold. In our current supply constrained environment there is always more money to be made selling houses than apartments, as houses are

1) cheaper to build and

2) sell for more than apartments.

Item 2 will always be the case, but #1 is a sign if serious dysfunction in this country that apartment building costs so much more per unit even after land costs are considered. Apartment building should scale such that price per unit reduces as you build up (to a certain height), that scale doesn't appear to exist in ireland like it does everywhere else.

Which is why I am arguing that the government should be all over this and ramping up and where there is demand using a model "build not for profit" for people who cannot afford a house, who are on welfare and who are coming in from war torn countries etc. Why should we pay X + the current greedy developers margin when we don't have too and what's to stop these companies creating the modular homes from finishing it off themselves and going directly to the EA what value add is the developer actually bringing in to the equation for their slice of the pie?

I have agreed that they could start their own modular home business and make a profit but its completely different to what they have been doing and my argument holds why not just go do something else that is more profitable if you going to completely change the way your working and trying to make it look like I don't understand what your talking about is just a side show for your own lack of understanding

If its Cluid then none of those employees have a hope.

To be honest from experience dealing with cluid and their antisocial tenants are a nightmare, cant imagine many of those working adjacent would want to live there too much now if its a cluid owned building.

That is my motto now :)

ANd then you have people wondering why i decided to retire 2 decades before im supposed to. Better being a tax taker at this point in my life than a tax payer. Pretty sure im not the only one. Ive taken it to the extreme and gone on the scratch, but I know lots and lots of people who just arent bothered doing overtime when asked anymore.

Or getting Planning permission isnt viable.

Is the decline in total construction or just housing? Because I suspect it’s agricultural and office space where construction has decreased with housing increasing.

it doesn’t mean an increase in margins (or gouging as you put it. It just means that there is a different mix of construction that have different profit margins.

"Cost-based" rental may be of help for this middle group. This is where a housing association buys a property but calculates rent on the basis of cost rather than either subsidy, in the case of social housing, or profit, in the case of private rentals. Although more expensive than traditional social housing, the accommodation is at least secure because it is not owned by a private landlord and, as previously mentioned, it is cheaper than inflated private rents.

If the govt were really serious about solving the housing crisis, it could change planning legislation to develop modular homes at scale, and quickly.

Then invest in companies with skill and experience to build the homes and fund the build entirely with govt money.

Bring the homes to market as mixed developments.

Some homes for sale, some social to rent, some part ownership etc. So we dont create another Ballymun and we continue to encourage mixed developments.

The rest of the construction industry could then refocus on building private developments only, with part 5 included, and then watch the house prices come down as the Govt is no longer suspending the floor of the market through excessive social housing provision.

Its the prices coming down part that makes me think the above approach will never happen.

What is the "cost" in cost rental?

The term is everywhere but never with an explanation of which cost its based on. Is it the capital cost? Maintenance cost? Finance cost? Etc

All would lead to wildly different levels of rent.

If its capital cost of the house then you are basically paying a mortgage but getting 0, same as in private sector.

If its cost of maintenance then its arguably worse than social housing which is means tested % of your income as rent.

The only modular home I have ever seen arrive and only need connection to utilities is a mobile home.

Any modular houses will come in sections and need wiring, plumbing and general second fixing. There was a no way you will bring you average semi D's in one piece onto a site. Go down to any Steeltech sales location and they have modular homes there. Have a look at them.

It's a bit more complicated that laying a slab. You will need roadways, footpaths, gardens etc. You can get a Steeltech house 90 sq M build for sub 40k however you have to wire plumb, slab, second fix and fit it out. You need a site and utilities.

The Key word you are missing is ''Modular'' the houses come in panels that are bolted together similar to Timber frame but a water proof slab is put on the outside. You cannot do anything structural to these houses or modify them in any way and any extensions will have to be a completely separate unit with a hall to integrate them.

Now these houses are 45 sqM and are considered suitable for four people????? That is 500 sq feet. It's about half the size of your average semi-D. There is a lot of debate about apartment size in Ireland and 45 sqM are about the smallest of them and they are one bedroom. Most two bedroom are 60-65sqM minimum and a lot are 70+.

Read through the article. 2 bed rooms one with Bunk beds. Common living dining area.....no hallway as an entrance. One bathroom, I say no storage.....at least with a mobile home you could shove stuff underneath it.

Now I believe the Ukrainians will mind and look after them. Put the great unwashed in them and the housing agency will be out replacing windows and wall panels every week.