Meter exchange and Isolator issue

lau1247 · 31-08-2023 10:15pm #1

Hi Folks,

I'm looking for some guidance or feedback as I'm a bit confused between what ESBN is telling me and the EV charger is telling me. I'm not the best at this so some lingo may not be exact but will try my best.

Anyway I got my EV charger installed in May. The installer installed an EV Distribution box, an isolator switch and the EV charger.

At the moment I'm trying to get my smart meter to change to a day and night. ESBN called out, took a look and said it is not within their code/guideline so therefore would not touch it. Specifically he was highlighting that the he should only see 2 wires going into the meter and on the other end of the 2 wires, there should be an isolator (??) - See below diagram from ESBN guide.

I did some comparison and the closest I see is the above marked in red should be changed to an isolator (??)

I got the EV installer back to look at it and I was told that there is no issue, the way they have installed it is normal to use Lucy Connector Block. He admit that it could have been a bit tidier so he rejig it for a little bit more space (I didn't take a photo of the adjusted position). All wiring etc are still the same. The EV installer said that the isolator from the ESBN guide is not part of their responsibility, because it need to be installed and tag by ESBN when they do the meter change. This is evident from bottom right image of the second page of the guideline showing it as tagged similar to the meter. He offered to be present if I get the ESBN fella out and any wiring they won't do, he is more than happy to wire it up (I'm not sure if it is that simple).

So now I'm kinda stuck in the middle and not sure what to do. If I call ESBN back, it would be as if nothing has changed and I'll be back to square one but on the other hand EV installer said there is nothing wrong.

I'm at a loss and hoping someone here more knowledgeable (or has the a day and night meter with EV changer) to tell me what is wrong and who is responsible for the said isolator when you got your meter change.

Anyone here can help diagnose the problem for me?

horseman34 · 01-09-2023 5:51am

Why did they use 2 lucy blocks for the neutral and the live and could they not have just done the same as what they did with the earth can't see why the connection is run to the ev board just to be turned around into the cabinet to go to the house

kirk. · 01-09-2023 8:06am

That picture of the cabinet is a shambles

kirk. · 01-09-2023 8:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054457#Comment_121054457

Supply into EV board first for main isolation and main overcurrent protection (if none fitted in cabinet)

meercat · 01-09-2023 8:45am

He shouldn’t have done this in the first place as there is no isolator fitted (by esbn)

that’s an absolute mess

why didn’t he wire your charger back to your existing distribution board

see the note at the bottom of your screenshot

Connecting the ev installation via the meter box should only be undertaken when all other methods are not available

10-10-20 · 01-09-2023 8:49am

So he took the L and N directly off the meter, looped it out to the "EV distribution box" where he installed some overcurrent protection called "MAINS" in the sub-board, then ran both N and L back into the meter cabinet and then back out to the house...

I presume he tied up his horse to the fence post while he told you that it was all fine? 😉

So basically he needs to follow what's written on the bottom left of that first page by installing an enclosed isolator device within assigned portion of the meter cabinet and then feeding the EV and house off that instead of playing string games with electrical cables.

I'd say that a number of guys on here would suggest reporting this to SafeElectric and letting them deal with the plonker.

horseman34 · 01-09-2023 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054737#Comment_121054737

Ok that makes sense, but I just can't understand why they didn't just open the meter and use longer cables rather than relying on the lucy blocks, unless they couldn't open the meter

kirk. · 01-09-2023 9:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055004#Comment_121055004

I thought the EV board was to be the main board with the house board wired from that via an SP isolator ?

I'm not clear on that now.

The Safe Electric images are similar to what you're saying . House and car teed-off from DP main protective device in cabinet.

JL spark · 01-09-2023 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055056#Comment_121055056

A lot of things going on there , single insulated cable in a cavity for a start ,

thats the standard of most ev installations, I steer clear of them unless you get a good paying job to do it right , (which is rare )

JL spark · 01-09-2023 10:32am

Ev board will become main DB ,

b63 over current device in meter box

power to ev board outside and then circuits , (house ev charger ) along with surge ,

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054457#Comment_121054457

I do not know, I did see that alright by tracing the sheet from ESBN. I'll ask the EV installer and see

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 10:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054737#Comment_121054737

This might the it. This is what's in the EV Board

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054866#Comment_121054866

Existing house distribution board is in the Utility room a good bit away near to the rear of the house. I think that's the reason as it is too far away (??)

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055344#Comment_121055344

Correct, there is B63 device in the EV board

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 11:01am

So is it just the case of tidying up by getting rid of some of the Lucy (to be similar to the Earth wiring) or does it still need an isolator install by the EV installer?

meercat · 01-09-2023 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055447#Comment_121055447

That’s not a good enough reason

it just makes life handier for the installer

someone mentioned reporting to safe electric

I think I’d give the installer a chance to put it all back correctly first

meercat · 01-09-2023 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055468#Comment_121055468

Esbn needs to install the isolator

meercat · 01-09-2023 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055421#Comment_121055421

the neutrals cannot be linked as that will not provide double pole isolation

JL spark · 01-09-2023 11:19am

Not been smart , but was this the cheapest quote you got ?

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055553#Comment_121055553

No, it is not. About average I'd say taking grant into account. 1,250 before grant.

listermint · 01-09-2023 11:21am

Why aren't they installing isolators when they swap out to smart meters which they clearly did here. Since isolators are now ESB guidelines they've no issue with KN pulling out old meters swapping in the smart meters but leaving their isolator standard to the side... ?

meercat · 01-09-2023 11:24am

I know it’s difficult to tell from an image but are all these cables 16mm

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055550#Comment_121055550

What I meant is same as the ESBN sheet with the Lucy's, using only 3 instead of 5

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055538#Comment_121055538

Not trying to be smart (I'm not familiar with electrical regulations), if that is not the reason to use a EV board at the meter, when really is that allowed?

Yeah I'd like to get them to correct any issue and in fairness they are responsive, my main issue is I haven't identified what exactly is wrong with it (other than the liberal use of Lucy's) to satisfy ESBN's requirements.

meercat · 01-09-2023 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055627#Comment_121055627

In some instances (townhouses/duplexes etc)it’s not possible to get a cable back to distribution board

if there is an isolator fitted then only 2 Lucy boxes will be required

10-10-20 · 01-09-2023 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055650#Comment_121055650

Two plus one for the earth?

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055565#Comment_121055565

Is that question for me? I don't know why KN didn't put that in when change to smart meter in Sept '21. Maybe it wasn't in the guideline back then? So should KN have installed one when they change it out?

This time the meter change is to be carried out ~~done~~ by ESBN, not KN.

horseman34 · 01-09-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055559#Comment_121055559

Is there much slack on the cable going into the house, doesn't look like there is much space in the bottom righthand corner for fitting an isolator unless you move the Lucy blocks up.

kirk. · 01-09-2023 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055725#Comment_121055725

Top right is isolator

Bottom right is main mcb

horseman34 · 01-09-2023 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055739#Comment_121055739

Apologies, nevermind my comment then

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055578#Comment_121055578

Measuring approx. 7mm (0.7cm) diameter

horseman34 · 01-09-2023 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055774#Comment_121055774

Probably 16sq then

lau1247 · 01-09-2023 12:18pm

Would I be right to say that:

If I get the EV Installer back to install another main MCB inside the meter board before it branch off to the EV board (Even though the EV board already contained a MCB), then that is acceptable? This would satisfy this line below.
Of course tidy up the Lucy's too.

Then it is just the case of ESBN coming to put on the isolator and change out the meter?

The below is from ESBN National Code of Practice (Page 45).

I guess from EV installer point, they are saying there is MCB already but ESBN require it to be on it own and located inside the meter board?

Is that the problem?

meercat · 01-09-2023 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055690#Comment_121055690

The isolator can take 25mm so all earths can be terminated into this

meercat · 01-09-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055840#Comment_121055840

No

the issues I see are

1 theres no main isolator in the meter cabinet

2 there’s no mechanical protection on main cables to new distribution board

3 there are Lucy connections outside the regulated dimensions (180x225) at the bottom right of the meter cabinet

4 the cabling is a mess

5 the ev board should be located close to but not under the meter cabinet (cheers Kirk)

this installation is poor.the contractor that did it should reinstate what you had(including a main ocpd in the bottom right of your meter cabinet)and wire your charger back to the original distribution board.

as already discussed just because it’s difficult to get a cable back isn’t a reason not to do it.

kirk. · 01-09-2023 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121056791#Comment_121056791

There's main isolation in EV board , just not an isolator in cabinet

Those mcbs(IEC60898) can function as an isolator

There's no separate distribution to house in EV board which is required afaik?

Also safe electric literature above says EV board not allowed under cabinet , dunno if that still applies or has been changed?

meercat · 01-09-2023 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057184#Comment_121057184

Sorry I’ll edit my post for clarity

there’s no main isolator in meter cabinet. The ev installer shouldn’t have proceeded without one

its now not a requirement to have separate isolation for the house in the ev board

the ev board should be located local to but not under the meter cabinet is correct also

kirk. · 01-09-2023 6:21pm

Ya I would just call that esbn isolator or cabinet isolator as it's not for main isolation

Householders are getting confused with all the talk about protective devices and isolators

Lenar3556 · 02-09-2023 8:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055840#Comment_121055840

The whole notion wiring an EV charger from the metering cabinet is messy, and really should be avoided. But it is allowed in current regulations as a last resort.

What you have is untidy within the cabinet and the cables going out to the new board are installed in a way that doesn’t best protect against damage. He could have used flexible conduit or PVC/PVC tails instead.

The new EV board should really have been located off to one side, but that is probably not going to be a show stopper at this stage.

I think the pragmatic solution to move this along is as you describe. Have the EV installer install main overcurrent protection (in the form of an isolator) within the bottom right of the cabinet. At the same time he could do away with those Lucy blocks and use DIN rail connectors within the new isolator enclosure.

I think a report to SafeElectric would be excessive.

kirk. · 02-09-2023 10:36am

Esbn Isolator to connect main tails and Henley blocks( or some other means) for the house tails seems to be the nearest you'll get to a half-decent job

Theres no need for a main protective device in cabinet if EV board has it fitted

Risteard81 · 02-09-2023 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059171#Comment_121059171

PVC/PVC tails can't be used - they wouldn't meet the Dca, -s2, d2, a2 cable requirements.

Lenar3556 · 02-09-2023 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059533#Comment_121059533

Is there no double insulated single core that meets that standard?

kirk. · 02-09-2023 1:01pm

Henley blocks are not that great either

Some other method , an enclosure or joint for the house tails would be better

horseman34 · 02-09-2023 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059843#Comment_121059843

So what are the options here kopex or 16sq lsf twin down to the ev board and back up?

Risteard81 · 02-09-2023 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059843#Comment_121059843

PVC/PVC obviously contains PVC, which would be Eca. I haven't come across an LSF insulated and sheathed version, but possibly it exists. But that would be cross-linked polyethylene or similar - not PVC.

Risteard81 · 02-09-2023 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121059956#Comment_121059956

Indeed - shouldn't be any ISCOs in the Permali Box.

meercat · 04-09-2023 5:03pm

I wonder if the same company did this install also

kirk. · 04-09-2023 5:20pm

No isolator

Looks like a company employee . Voltages and fault loop impedance( ? ) scribbled on side

2nd thoughts , that's the meter installer

meercat · 04-09-2023 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069109#Comment_121069109

Yes that’s standard practice now to write the readings on the cabinet

sparcocars · 04-09-2023 7:59pm

I know i'm just repeating whats been said already but the installation in the meterbox in the OP's post is the some of the roughest i've seen for a new installation.

Pure laziness. I wouldn't have whoever did that change a plugtop.

lau1247 · 05-09-2023 9:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069057#Comment_121069057

Sorry been away for a few days and didn't get a chance to follow up. Will read through them this morning and reply back to all the relevant comments.

Much appreciated for the inputs from everyone (and the patience to walk this through with me)

If you have the name of the company where this photo is from, can you PM and and I can confirm it there.

Meter exchange and Isolator issue

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