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A global recession is on the horizon - please read OP for mod warning

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    The reduced 9% VAT rate for tourism, hospitality and some other services will expire at midnight and return to 13.5%.

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    And the retailers that never passed this reduction on to their customers but instead pocketed the difference will immediately raise their prices and the consumer loses out for a 2nd time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    I think we're well past any Covid bounce.

    Just google a chart for oil prices and you'll see the Russian invasion creating a massive spike. Saudi Arabia and others have been taking advantage of the spike by keeping prices elevated by reducing their supply too. In a previous decade Saudi Arabia increased production to undercut USA fracking so it's swings and roundabouts.

    Putin could be gone next week and oil futures could collapse, but then post Putin chaos in Russia could make things worse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    European Central Bank likely to push ahead with a 10th rate hike as services prices and energy costs rise steadily


    It isn't over folks

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    But the increased taxes are amplifying any energy cost rises.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Inflation is caused by too much demand chasing finite supply, causing price rises.

    If its external factors causing energy prices to go up, reducing demand through rate rises is still an effective measure. If you don't increase rates then people will borrow more and that extra money in circulation chasing the sane limited goods /energy will make inflation far worse.

    Again, look at Turkey for a very recent example of what happens when you don't raise rates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,397 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....and we re back to the neoclassical approach to economics, i.e. its always demands fault, heres reality, no its not, inflation can and does in fact also come from the supply side of our economies! again, we can clearly see this in some of the data we do have access to, certain elements of our economies are making out like bandits here, some experiencing record profits, energy companies etc.....

    ...it really is time for us to move on from this neoclassical childishness!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,324 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Well if companies are making record profits then it's not production/energy costs. Its gouging. Which leads back to saying if there was nobody able to buy at those prices then they have to reduce. So you are back to demand based inflation.

    Maybe it's the the sheer volume of cheap goods/global economy/8 billion of us. I'm sure economic thinking has evolved from 100 years ago but fundamentals probably don't as much.

    But it's definitely not black and white, you could make several contradictory but fairly logical arguments which shows its a grey area amd always has been.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    There are 2 factors that set a price: supply and demand

    Supply of oil and gas is out of European control primarily, we do not produce enough.

    So the only solution to inflation is to reduce demand, via interest rates.

    If you dont raise rates, you will end up in hyperinflation like Argentina or turkey



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Looks like the Australian LNG strikes are not settled after all. In a strange kind of way Chevron will be quite happy about it.

    Not the end of the world for LNG supply in the EU though as they seem to be getting plenty enough to get by ok.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭the.red.baron


    of all the tripe you have posted that must be the worst, its like adding 1+1 and getting 50



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    If we were to apply the logic of MMT that you previously advocated then seeing as the economy has full employment and inflation the government should be increasing taxes and cutting spending and letting the private sector take up the slack at present. The MMT advocates are very quiet about this aspect at the moment as they know it would be political suicide to adopt such a policy at present.

    Regardless of what economic camp people wish to sit in the simple fact is that economics is social science based on how people reactions to events. It’s not that the financial systems are overly complicated or any other BS like that which makes it difficult to predict the future as any system when broken down into smaller pieces is easy to understand. The element that makes it difficult to predict is the human element because we don’t always act on rational facts.

    Take inflation we are seeing at present for example yes the increase in energy has had a big impact on inflation and it has worked its way into nearly every cost imaginable but that is not the only element for today’s inflation.

    Take for example companies have raised their prices by more than the increase in inputs because they believe there will be further inflation over and above the increase caused by energy and they want to limit the number of price increases due to bad press. That’s a human decision which directly leads to further inflation that has nothing to do with energy costs.

    once the belief exists that we are in a high inflationary period period people react differently which in turn leads to more inflation that has nothing to do with ‘push inflation’.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭the.red.baron


    did you read the article? total non covid deaths with research into what caused the deaths....... it was just the cold/high energy prices, during one of the warmest winters on record and with subsides , great research

    what is right about it is the better question

    you keep posting shite without I assume every looking at it yourself



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Once the inflation midset kicks in it spirals big time. With fuel going up again and more price hikes concrete products levy etc all in the media, inflation and prices rises will start again because as you rightly say its down to the human brain. Anyway remains to be seen what will happen yet, my bets it starts to tick up again even though the real economy is not looking too healthy and on a downward trend. The only way to kill the beast is demand destruction and high unemployment, hasty as it sounds I think that what's the CBs are trying to achieve.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭the.red.baron


    its not the human brain causing inflation, it is fuel price increases thought

    demand causing this is a fallacy, real world inescapable increases in foodprices and fuel prices are what drives it



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    I agree the only thing that may help is the fall in value of the RMB may lead to cheaper imports…but it is yet to be seen if China defends the RMB or not. If they don’t expect a lot of noise about import tariffs etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    No, it is a well known proven fact that over 30% of Winter excess deaths are caused directly by cold homes and energy poverty. If energy prices double more people go into energy poverty resulting in more deaths than would of been otherwise.

    In England for example in December 2022 twice as many people died directly because of the cold than in 2020 and 2021 when the weather was actually colder. How do you explain that ?

    It is impossible to escape the fact that higher energy bills mean more people can't afford ( or are scared ) to put the heating on resulting in more people dying from the cold. So even with the mildest winter on record deaths were higher, same would of happened in a severe winter just far bigger numbers.

    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    WTI hits the highest price for the year despite China's economy supposedly on the verge of collapse and a general global slowdown. Diesel prices will be shooting up in the next few weeks.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    The thing is China is one of the economies like France less affected by oil price spikes, they've actually been dropping rates interests over the last two years.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭the.red.baron




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    3 months from Dec 2019 ( before covid )

    Energy bills are now 100%+ and fuel poverty due to that, inflation and general cost of living is 3% higher at about 10-11%. Probably a big part of cold homes are a result of people not being able to afford repairs, damp, roofs, insulation and things.

    Biggest groups are aged 70+ on low income, young children of parents on low income, disabled, people with heart problems and things. In Europe some will be higher and some lower but on average in Europe as a whole it is about 10% of the population in fuel poverty so like 55 million or so.

    Some info on Ireland's but probably round about the same percentage you would imagine


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    The global economic slowdown seems, finally, to be lapping against Ireland’s shores. Although it depends which numbers you look at.

    https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/economic-clouds-are-starting-to-darken-just-as-budget-demands-get-set-to-peak/a1155992239.html

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Good to see Germany's fertilizer supplies back on track after they had to shut down most of it's own production. Imports from a neighbouring country are up 334% now this year. You couldn't make it up could you, one day they send tanks and the next day they send money to pay for missiles that blow their own tanks up that they just sent.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Services contracting all of a sudden, they were keeping everything up a couple of months ago. Looks like Germany is heading into something worse than " mild " if this keeps up.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    PPI down to -7.6% from -3.4%. Probably someone will have to invent a new word for it shortly.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    There's already a word for it, it's called deflation. In the scheme of things it's very welcomed. It means the current high prices may not be baked in. If the CPI follows suit, it would mean prices will reduce. If they reduce back to pre-crisis/war levels, it means the inflation was transitory and not entrenched.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    If it were transitory it would not have required rate rises to dampen. The inflation we have been experiencing is not transitory. That is consensus at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    And yet people questioned why interest rate rises would help when its not consumer demand pushing it (rate rises are the only think CB's can do)

    When the key items driving inflation (food staples & energy) are 2 key items people cannot exactly do without, interest rate rises would have less of an impact. This isn't people splashing out on those luxuries (food & energy) causing a massive demand and inflation.

    And yet if the CPI follows the PPI and consumer prices actually reduce... what would you call it, entrentched?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Consumer demand is reducing though - higher interest rates mean less borrowing, less cash in the system as a whole.

    Obviously the perfect solution would be to increase availability of energy (oil, gas etc). We cannot do that, European energy sources are limited, so the only action we can take is to tackle demand instead.

    The PPI reductions are driven by decreased demand first, not cheaper input prices.



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