Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057980#Comment_121057980

List them

01-09-2023 9:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057982#Comment_121057982

Honestly dude - if I wrote that to you, you'd call it antagonistic and give me a warning.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 01-09-2023 9:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057962#Comment_121057962

Same number of games starting at 10 against top tier club or international sides?

How are you defining that?

I mean I'd probably give Crowley the URC QF and Final as against top tier club opposition, maybe the European last 16 game but that was a loss. Probably would count the Australia game as a top tier international side. Its tier 1 anyway.

That said you could also say only games against France, New Zealand and South Africa counts as the very top tier.

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057972#Comment_121057972

You must be factoring in an impact of a very marginal drop in performance.

He isn't starting from a very high bar despite playing weaker opposition.

Interested Observer · 01-09-2023 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057982#Comment_121057982

Very condescending and sarcastic comment here.

Neil3030 · 01-09-2023 9:40pm

Just so I'm clear....

The same people who are aghast at hyperbole and provincialism....

I presume these people would never denigrate a Leinster side (at home) with 8 of the current Irish RWC 33 as a "shadow team". (including a current and likely future WPOTY)....

And they'd never dismiss defending league champions (at home) fielding 6 of the current Springbok RWC 33 as some shower that "got their arses handed to them by Exeter"....

They'd never suggest that leading a team to victory in one tournament doesn't matter because, meh, there's another tournament they might want to win more....

Or that Australia (then around 6th in the IRB rankings) are not top tier opposition....

Anyone who thinks provincialism is a wholly owned subsidiary of one province are contributing more to the problem than they may care to think.

Sometimes the calls are coming from inside the house.

aloooof · 01-09-2023 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057998#Comment_121057998

You made the point that he's a not world beater yet. And he's not. But nobody is claiming that he is. But that's not the bar for the back-up 10 jersey. That's the point I'm making and I think it's a perfectly legitimate one to respond to a point you made, as it pertains to Crowley vs RB.

And saying he should be ahead of RB isn't losing all perspective on him. It's a perfectly credible argument.

I mean, you literally included a comment "Crowley is No. 2 now" as an example of hyperbole. It's not.

sxt · 01-09-2023 9:44pm

I think that Ross byrne is a quality player and he has shown that at leinster

But Ireland will be on the backfoot in this world cup. Ross byrne managing a lead won't be good enough. I think Crowley has more of an x factor and has more of an ability to forcefully have an impact on a game

He should be number 2

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058002#Comment_121058002

I'd class it as the sides that have top tier talent and depth, are very well coached, are consistent, very rarely seen as a significant underdog no matter where they play, and basically you look at them being in your group and are worried. You know the clear drop off after them to the next level.

Wouldn't currently put Stormers or Australia or Glasgow into that bucket - they each aren't checking off more than one of that list.

The likes of the 3 international sides you mentioned - NZ would be close currently. At NH club level it would be LAR, Toulouse, Leinster (A team).

Sanjuro · 01-09-2023 9:49pm

Christ, this is some tiresome reading.

phog · 01-09-2023 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058079#Comment_121058079

Over two full days of it now.

sprucemoose · 01-09-2023 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057989#Comment_121057989

you said crowley hasnt started at 10 against a top tier team - he literally made his first start for ireland against australia at 10, albeit unplanned. he started a URC final away to the reigning champions. not alot in terms of examples but still nothing

another post (i think it was from someone else but maybe it was yourself) stated he hadnt started a european game at 10. by my count hes started at least 2 (castres away last season and sharks away this year). again, not many but not nothing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058079#Comment_121058079

there isnt a game this weekend, this topic is about as good as any other at the moment

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 9:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058041#Comment_121058041

Yes, a side that retained only 20% of that starting team for the final the following week is absolutely a 'shadow team'.

Yes, that Stormers side absolutely got their arses handed to them by Exeter a few weeks earlier.

Yes, Munster absolutely did not prioritise winning the URC over the CC.

Yes, that Australia side isn't on the same tier as France, SA, NZ.

I have absolutely no idea where the 'hyperbole and provincialism' are in those facts.

sydthebeat · 01-09-2023 10:06pm

Some people should knows better.

There are squidgy one eyed red and blue on both sides, who will big up their man and denigrate the opposition.

At the end of the day the difference between the two is Crowley has a bright future and Byrne is at his ceiling. Crowley has only 22 professional starts at this stage. He's been parachuted to the front line due to circumstances rather than performance, but by god has he taken his chance with both hands.

Who plays ahead of the other depends on what they coaches want. Personally, the status quo remaining, Byrne steps in for next years 6N as he's the closest to sextons style currently, plus he'll be the main man at Leinster without that shadow over him.

However if Crowley takes the main spot at Munster (which is no guarantee) and his game progresses, he has the physical traits to supercede Byrne within 12 months. He's not there yet.

Dubinusa · 01-09-2023 10:07pm

So..... has the Carberry hype 🚂 moseyed on?

I can't wait to see how the boards explode if Ross B has a blinder this world cup!

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 10:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058111#Comment_121058111

Australia are simply not a top tier international side. If we could swap out SA/France/NZ with them from our side of the pool we'd do it in a heartbeat.

I didn't say Crowley never started at 10 in Europe. Earlier in the thread I pointed out that he started at 10 for them in the CC against the Sharks when Munster were beaten out the door by them, down 50-21 until the Sharks took their foot off the gas (the mere mention of that loss was enough to receive a warning from our very even handed mods earlier in the thread, so god knows what they'll do to me for bringing it up again).

Crash · 01-09-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057941#Comment_121057941

The long hall, 34th and Madison, was my go to for a bit. Can get very busy though.

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 10:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058145#Comment_121058145

Where is anyone denigrating Crowley?

Everyone is saying nearly the exact same thing as you are - it isn't denigration.

sprucemoose · 01-09-2023 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058154#Comment_121058154

that doesnt mean they arent top tier. and they were playing alot better last year they were just incredibly unlucky with injuries etc. they have gone backwards since then

hence why i said i thought it was from someone else but it might have been you

gameoverdude · 01-09-2023 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058167#Comment_121058167

Sweet! On 39th and Park! Thanks.

sydthebeat · 01-09-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058187#Comment_121058187

You must have missed those posts who question the validity of his starts and performances so far...

"Australia not a top team" "no start in Europe" (which was incorrect) "no real game against any top team"

ALL of that is literally denigration

theVersatile · 01-09-2023 10:27pm

Can somebody please do a RichieRich and throw in some ludicrous opinion to try and drag this thread away from Byrne v Crowley bs?

For example: I think Rory Scannell could do a job at 10 for Ireland - physical, athletic, good systems, good kicker, strong defender. He'd be a flawless fit.

gameoverdude · 01-09-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058240#Comment_121058240

I don't think it's denigrating.

I believe next season could be his. WC oc who'll get gametime. Bloody great on the cv. Still might be a year too soon for first/second choice.

Also the whole posts weren't posted. On liners ain't great.

Plus Australia aren't a top team which is a shame.

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058210#Comment_121058210

Australia weren't top tier last year either.

With such a small number of countries playing rugby you can't have a top tier of more than 4 teams. Everyone doesn't get a medal because they can have the odd good match.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 01-09-2023 10:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058261#Comment_121058261

I doubt he would work out as a pure 10. Farrell missed a trick by now including him instead of Frawley when he was looking for a utility option for the squad.

sprucemoose · 01-09-2023 10:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058269#Comment_121058269

world rugby literally designates tiers to teams

tier 1 is the top tier

australia are in tier 1

stick to NFL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058261#Comment_121058261

the taylor swift concert movie is coming out soon, prefer us to talk about that?

Iamabeliever · 01-09-2023 10:36pm

Team for SA - Henshaw, AKI and Ringrose on the wing. As per the Samoa game, Ringrose is suited to playing wing and can do a job.

gameoverdude · 01-09-2023 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058282#Comment_121058282

Probably O'Mahony. Already plays the wing.

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058240#Comment_121058240

Definition of denigration: 'the action of unfairly critising someone or something'

Pointing out facts isn't unfair criticism - it is was it is. No different than you pointing out his experience:

Crowley has only 22 professional starts at this stage.

I'd argue this statement by you is far harsher and comes much closer to denigration:

He's been parachuted to the front line due to circumstances rather than performance

Despite being described as a 'pathetic hater' I believe Crowley has gotten to where he is on the merit of his performance and deserves his spot.

Foxtrol · 01-09-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058304#Comment_121058304

Falling back to the world rugby tiering because you can't assess the quality of a team and then taking a weird jab at me about NFL 🤣

Sure, Italy and Wales are really at the level of quality as South Africa and France... 🤣

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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