Are the Greens soft on crime?

Everlong1 · 03-09-2023 1:41pm #1

This Independent article outlines the proposed Garda response to the escalating savagery on Dublin's streets, a topic of regular discussion on Boards. I assume most peole with even a modicum of common sense and concern for our safety will welcome the proposed response as long, LONG overdue but Green Party Justice Spokeman Patrick Costello thinks it's all a bit too much. As a Fine Gael voter who gave the Greens my number 2 vote at the last election I've just written to the good Deputy and his leader to express my opinion that the Public Order and canine units are absolutely the right response to the mobs of feral savages who think nothing of baiting and attacking Gardai in Cherry Orchard and other areas, quite apart from what they do to hapless tourists and other decent people in our cities. I've also told him that his comments would suggest to me that the Greens could be soft on crime and that I would have serious reservations about giving them any future vote. And I've invited him to have a look at Boards if he wants to get a flavour of Joe and Jane Public's views on our crime problem.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/full-time-public-order-unit-armed-patrols-and-10m-in-overtime-new-garda-plan-to-make-dublin-safe-after-spate-of-assaults/a916172505.html

Jim_Hodge · 03-09-2023 1:58pm

The Greens, as a party, are far removed from real life and soft on everything.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063235#Comment_121063235

I'm concerned most of the main parties in the world are soft on climate crisis.

If climate change killed half as many people as it does, but did it dressed up in a tracksuit and came form a single mother background, then we'd crack down on it with zeal.

Jim_Hodge · 03-09-2023 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063311#Comment_121063311

Ehh....ok!

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2023 2:23pm

If you care about the victims, and what there to be fewer victims, or no victims at all, then you'd have already wondered about the causal factors of this type of crime. If you enjoy getting worked up about the criminals and seeing them punished by armed Gardai and dogs, then that's the approach you'd take.

I favour reducing victims. Focusing on the causes of crime and addressing them. One example would be people growing up without reasonable hope of getting an education to get decently paid, stable job so they can consider owning a house, having a family and so on. Those people are the ones you need to focus on. If the schools in those areas needs 3 times the funding of other schools to achieve the same level of out comes as the the national average, then there you have one solution.

That won't do anything about the people who are already committed to criminality, so we also need a strategy to tackle that in the short term. But if you're concerned about victims, then you'll want to prevent the creation of future victims by preventing the creation of future criminals. If you just enjoy the soap opera of crime and punishment, then do nothing except wait for criminals to create victims and then punish the criminals.

Jim_Hodge · 03-09-2023 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063357#Comment_121063357

Yes, that sounds like soft in crime for sure.

Everlong1 · 03-09-2023 2:39pm

El duderino - We've tried the "hug a thug" approach for the best part of thirty years now. It has not only failed but made the problem worse by embedding an entitlement attitude in generation after generation of welfare dependent families whose atittude from birth is "de guvvement owes me a living".

I grew up in a working class house in the Liberties area of Dublin in the late 70’s. We had no hot running water and an outside toilet with no garden. My contemporaries would have grown up in similar circumstances. Compared to our childhoods, the violent savages currently running amok in Dublin live in very privileged circumstances, with cradle to grave welfare benefits and free Council houses – all with multiple bedrooms, hot running water, gardens, and modern school facilities unrecognisable to myself and my contemporaries, who attended Christan Brothers schools where corporal punishment – i.e. regular beatings – where the norm. The excuses constantly trotted out about the poor thugs and their deprived backgrounds etc. sound like a sick joke to me and my contemporaries.

By all means let's do what we can to help those who GENUINELY need it, but the time for a return to traditional law and order values is long overdue.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2023 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063423#Comment_121063423

Ah, yeah absolutely levels are one thing but wealth disparity is the stronger indicator of crime.

I challenge the myth of the old days were brilliant. My MIL talks about rhe good ole days when grew up in a poor area. I Ln separate conversations she said she and her siblings took turns sleeping on the couch downstairs so they could hear the burglars breaking in and frighten them off before they got in.

And for th love of God, its not about hugging the thugs. Its about preventing future victims. You can hate the thugs if you want. But if extra resources in those schools prevented them from becoming thugs, then what would you hate?it's not about the thugs, it's about the victims. You focus on what you care about. You're focused on punishing the thugs.

Strumms · 03-09-2023 2:49pm

The causes of crime ?

the causes involve people making choices to commit crime… crime is 100% a choice or influenced by choices that people made / make….

everyone can get an education…..in this country education is more accessible and easily attainable and cheaper than in the majority of the world. That is not just my outlook, various studies, in Ireland and in other countries back that up and rank us in the top 5 or their top 10 in the world in terms of our education being accessible, affordable and attainable….

The Greens have two policy pages on their website. At a glance the only reference to crime is decriminalising drugs use and hokey on corporate criminality… way to go, really 😵‍💫

so it is as a concern, not up there with their priorities….

Everlong1 · 03-09-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063461#Comment_121063461

I think you might be misunderstanding some of my points. I'm not suggesting for a second that my childhood was some golden age where there was no crime. Quite the opposite. The Ireland I grew up in was an economically bankrupt kip with massive emigration and still in the backward grip of the Church. My point is that today's prosperous, moderen Ireland, with full employment and one of the most generous welfare systems in the world, gives no one an excuse to say "oh my poor deprived background". Myself and my contemporaries had none of the benefits of today's teenagers but we were all brought up with a work ethic and healthy respect - fear, even - of the Guards. We now have endless social programmes, funding and strategies for deprived areas such as the Deis school schemes etc. Yes there are waiting lists for some services etc. but Strumm's points above about the educational and other opportunities available are spot on. Too many people are choosing to take the easy way out and become thugs. Why is this? This isn't Ireland in the 30's. No one is living in tenements and dealing with TB, polio, rickets and malnutrition. There are jobs for anyone who's prepared to work. At what point are we going to stop making excuses for thuggery and start demanding some personal responsibility from people?

L.Ball · 03-09-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063357#Comment_121063357

You've never set foot in an estate in D15, 17, 11, 5, 12, 24 or in any townie areas have you.

Del2005 · 03-09-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063357#Comment_121063357

How come the vast majority of people from these areas aren't scumbags then? We've doctors, nurses, trades people, sporting stars and every other type of job being done by people from the roughest parts of cities. Schools in these areas are already getting extra funding. There's any number of clubs in these areas they can join.

The people committing these crimes aren't doing it because they've no alternative, they are doing it because the are bad and the lack of consequences means they can do as they please.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2023 7:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121063473#Comment_121063473

If its just about crime being 100% a choice, then why are there such things as high and low crime areas?

El_Duderino 09 · 03-09-2023 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121064412#Comment_121064412

Of course they're not all scumbags. It would be bizarre to suggest they should all be criminals. And yes, all kinds off professions come from all kinds of areas, but not in anything like equal proportions.

I think people are basically all pretty similar. Whether you're from the high crime or low crime part of town, or the wealthy or poor part of town, we're all working with the same gray matter. So the difference in outcomes has to be almost entirely environmental.

Why do you think the the high crime part of town tends to also be the poor part and the low crime part of town tends to be the wealthy part? I think it's because of environment and opportunity. The people in the wealthy part of town know that if they work hard they can make decebt money, own a house, have children and love comfortably if they manage their money. People in the poor part of town look around and see that they can work like a dog for below subsistence wages which often require state benefits to still life in near poverty.

That's what I think. Why do you think crime and wealth are negatively correlated.

nachouser · 03-09-2023 8:03pm

Ah, deadly. Another Dublin thread. Haven't had one of these in a while.

Del2005 · 03-09-2023 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065075#Comment_121065075

Why do you think the the high crime part of town tends to also be the poor part and the low crime part of town tends to be the wealthy part?

Some of the biggest scumbags I know are from wealthy areas.

I'd say that the amount of crime is the same. Wealthy people do more white collar crime and if they are scumbags Daddy knows someone who can get them off or they can afford to run away. The only person convicted for the killing of Brian Murphy outside Anabel's was the poorest of the attackers

TokTik · 03-09-2023 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065104#Comment_121065104

No greens anywhere else in Ireland??

Jim_Hodge · 03-09-2023 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065646#Comment_121065646

There's only something like 3 green TDs outside Dublin. It's a but comical really.

nachouser · 03-09-2023 10:37pm

Dublin is safer than most of the rest of the country. It is just another thinly veiled thread to have a go.

Jim_Hodge · 04-09-2023 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065782#Comment_121065782

I don't see anybody steering this towards Dublin, other than yourself. The OP article referred to Dublin street patrols but the discussion was the Green's attitude to crime and law enforcement in general.

Beasty · 04-09-2023 10:11am

This thread is specific to teh Greens approach on crime. Do not turm it into another general, or Dublin, crime thread

Larbre34 · 04-09-2023 10:19am

The Greens are soft on just about everything, except foisting the cost of addressing climate change on the poorest and least powerful. That they do with bloodthirsty relish and zeal.

The recent utterances of Patrick Costello TD about the nature of the planned new policing presence in Dublin City, were as ignorant as they were appalling from a TD on the Govt benches.

Faugheen · 04-09-2023 2:49pm

Ah yes, when blaming Helen McEntee fail just shift the blame to the Greens.

Some people really need to change the record.

Everlong1 · 04-09-2023 6:12pm

UPDATE: Received the following response from Deputy Costello's office to my correspondence.

Patrick fully supports the further deployment of members of the Gardaí to patrol the city centre. In fact as justice spokesperson he has been lobbying Minister McEntee to increase funding and recruitment every year since he has been elected. Patrick believes visibility is the best deterrent to such anti social behaviour and would point to other jurisdictions such as France where armed police have resulted in innocent people being killed, plus resulting rioting. In particular Patrick has advocated for more Gardaí on bikes as a means to cover a greater area of ground in the city centre.

prunudo · 04-09-2023 6:17pm

Gardai on bikes, says it all really. What they going to do, give the scumbag a 'backer' to the station.

Everlong1 · 04-09-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065782#Comment_121065782

The level of denial from some posters on this site about the crime problem in this country is astonishing.

Everlong1 · 04-09-2023 6:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069094#Comment_121069094

In fairness I thought his response was reasonable enough. It's the proposal for armed Gardai on public patrol that he seems to have latched onto. Even I thought that proposal was a bit much. I'd be delighted to see the Public Order Unit battering the toerags off the streets but it's not like the junkies are all going around touting AK47's.

TokTik · 04-09-2023 7:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069123#Comment_121069123

100%. Allowing them to use their baton would be a start. Change the law to whatever the Spanish police have.

buried · 04-09-2023 7:35pm

The Green parties worldwide are on a politically driven ideology to "save the planet".

That sort of saviour ideology then whittles down to all sorts of other realms of governance that they have literally no business being a part of.

Like crime. Their inbuilt saviour ideology would denote that criminals can be "saved" too. This ridiculous noise they spew out "Just redistribute the wealth back to the poorest in society", which is laughable when all of their climate change policies just put more economic pressure onto the poorest in society.

The greens aren't soft. They are a total utter scam. A single policy ideological cult.

Potential-Monke · 04-09-2023 8:17pm

Everyone in power is soft on crime because they can afford to live away from crime.

buried · 04-09-2023 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121069510#Comment_121069510

Jokes on them because they have less than 52 weeks left in power. The key to attaining real power is staying in it. And if they were serious about their long term goals, that's how they would manage it.

But no, pretty soon the vast majority of them will have to come join the party that the rest of us are in.

Are the Greens soft on crime?

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