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Immigration to Ireland - policies, challenges, and solutions *Read OP before posting*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,612 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Does anyone have control over the demographics of a nation or the changes that happen? One would have thought it is an extremely difficult thing to control, if not impossible i.e. birth rate, marriage rate, death rate, immigration numbers, emigration numbers, language spoken, religion practiced and so on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    Well that may turn out to be the case but economic growth ain’t everything



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    It’s hard to describe it just as I’m sure it’s difficult for someone from say Thailand to describe their nations core character but it’s something that was created over centuries and is with us due to the people who came before us

    people from Nigeria , India or Poland can’t have that same inner understanding of it and we can’t expect them to either ,therefore due to the enormous demographic change in the past twenty five years,the country must change

    that’s not a frivolous thing



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,612 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    No proof this actually happens. If I moved to Iceland or Estonia, I wouldn't have the slightest interest in 'diluting' their culture or making the people less Icelandic or Estonian. People will hold on to their own customs and identity in their own country no matter what the demographics, whether they have a 1% immigrant population or a 15% one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,185 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well there's little point in having a constitution, legislation, judicial system and a government - if we can't exert some basic controls on our population makeup. It may or may not be difficult but that's one of the roles of those that live in and run a sovereign state.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Saw on the news the other day it was Brazil day in Dublin. A Brazilian support group representative said there was 70k here, whereas last year's census has the number at 24k. Bit of a disparity there, no doubt actual figures underrepresented in the census.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    I’m not saying people from Poland or India or Nigeria want to undermine our culture, I’m saying that they can’t be expected to maintain it so this means that the country must change



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,612 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The idea that you can switch on and off immigration numbers like a tap is a very popular one among the anti-immigration lobby, but in reality, it is extremely difficult to control. You're talking about the movement of individual human beings making decisions on moving from one country to another. There are so many variables involved that governments tend not to get involved in attempting to manipulate how many people enter and leave a country in a given year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,185 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    This is laughable. Of course governments can implement immigration controls, if they've a mind to it. We already have such policies and all we need to do is to implement them to the nth degree. A zero tolerance approach of abuse is all that ordinary citizens ask for. Zero tolerance of abuse. Not throwing your hands in the air and saying we are helpless..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭crusd


    2022 Census had it at 40k not 24.

    A significant amount of Brazilians also have Portuguese citizenship, Italian and Spanish also, so given they would be EU passport holders when arriving here are likely recorded as being Portuguese / Spanish / Italian. They also bring great genetics, soccer skills and food.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,612 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The problem with attempting to "control" immigration numbers is that it can blow up in your face. It is arguably too difficult to control in any event - was the Irish government in control of the numbers in the mid 2010s when more people were leaving the country than entering?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,911 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Why isn't it? A child born in America to Irish parents is an Irish citizen by birth. They are also American by American law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭hymenelectra


    With a broad stroke, I think it's fair to say that the governing parties have dismally failed on practically every front bar "the economy".

    And when one considers that the very purpose of economy is to improve society, then the economy is also a failure.

    Nearly every metric of infrastructure can be pointed to as worse than ever. Access, facility, transport, housing, health provision, social mobility, the lot.


    In all my time I have never seen such a cavernous divide between the desires and needs of a nations people compared to its leaderships action. It truly is bizarre.

    What's more, this symptomatic failure of government can be seen across the same few countries. All with suspiciously similar symptoms, all with suspiciously detached leadership, all with suspiciously similar growing resentment in tow.

    This isn't to say its a giant conspiracy. It's just plain old greed at the heart of it. But I'll be damned if there isn't a reckoning on the horizon. An utterly unsustainable state of affairs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,911 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    what does 'control on our population make up' mean though exactly?

    picking and choosing which nationalities to allow in ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭hymenelectra


    The problem with stating that X thing can't be done, against a growing backdrop of X needing to be done, is that it's only a matter of action. A split second in time.

    The rules are the rules until they aren't. And that changes in a split second too, a signature on a bit of paper, a handshake, a declaration.

    The trends are the trends until they aren't.

    The acceptable is acceptable until the very second it isn't.

    Nothing is immutable.

    And if one were to put a finger in the air on society's direction, change is wanted more and more.

    Time will tell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,443 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    It depends.

    Some who have emigrated and returned may have brought more and done more to and for the country than a group of naysaying whingers who stayed all their lives!

    Honoured and respected me axxx! ;/s

    Post edited by Goldengirl on


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,443 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Absolutely. You are entitled to your opinion, all day long :)

    But have to say the only people I have heard saying" the sky is falling "are the same people who would have the poor mouth on them over anything and everything...



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,612 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    As a country, we are very much an "open for business" type of state, strongly encouraging inward investment and visits by tourists and we have a booming export economy. We are heavily dependent on doing business with other nationalities, probably more so than many of our neighbouring European countries. Putting up a 'closed' sign and hard borders around the state would completely go against everything we have been doing for decades.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,443 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Lol!

    If we were in recession you might think differently!

    I am thinking you are very young not to know that...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The patterns are repeated remarkably consistently across the multicultural west. Pick any country you like and we see the same trends time and time again and over generations with it. Again if this politic was the boon it's claimed to be we'd see a lot more variation.

    As for Pakistani and Bangladeshi migrants, many of the original entrants came from Kashmir and Azad — including those fleeing the devastating Mangla Dam floods in the 1960s and war in Bangladesh. These people went into manual industrial jobs and lack of English shut many off from ascending beyond that.

    It's not good enough to say, "oh yes, socioeconomics played a part but look at Indians vs Pakistanis and you'll see its actually culture that's the problem". Because both migrants communities are coming from different origin stories which affected the opportunties that both the migrants themselves and their descendants had in breaking out of economic cycles.

    OK, then look at the Vietnamese 'Boat people' of the late 70's early 80's and their 'origin stories', fleeing an actual disastrous war and oppression with barely the clothes on their backs pushed from pillar to post as refugees in camps across the planet. Now today in the US they're on average richer than the White population and less likely to be living in poverty, yet they lag in education status and English language proficiency compared to other immigrant groups. They've done so well in little over a generation wherever they went that Vietnam today has one of the largest movements of money from their diaspora to relatives back home.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    Governments did it during Covid , no entry or very strictly controlled



  • Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭hymenelectra


    It ain't working out as it is. The economy is of no practical application to society, otherwise we wouldn't have the multiple, worsening crises year after year.

    On that very simple understanding, it's not going to stay the same. Because it can't.

    What happens next, we'll see. But there's no future in how things stand.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    How pray tell are their genetics 'great'? This should be good... It's an all too regular thing to view our 'genetics'' as somehow the lesser. That our pasty faces would be so much better with a touch of the exotic. I'll bet you'd not suggest Uganda or Korean 'genetics' are in need of more European blood to improve them.

    Never mind that you've reduced an entire cultural group to a stereotype and again hit the oft pushed button of multiculturalism; base exoticism. With some(not necessarily you to be clear) it's damned near a fetish. Oh look at all the different colours and exotic foodstuffs etc. This yearning for the "exotic' the "Oriental" as it were has long been a strand in many European cultures. In the past it was often, if not usually more negative, a pantomime appropriation, but I would argue the more current version has its negatives too.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 RBBBBSS


    Absolutely. Where did I say otherwise.

    Some countries force dual national children to renounce one citizenship or the other upon turning 18. We should do the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭hymenelectra


    Further to the point above, and only sticking to housing as a single bellwether, it is a morbidly curious question that comes to mind. What is the breaking point number?

    At one point we would have been 100k homes behind what's needed. And then later 140k, and later 190k.

    And currently, it's approximately 250k.

    It would be easy to have jumped in before and state "There's no way society is going to tolerate the implications of a 100k home deficit compared to the ever increasing demand"

    But demonstrably not!

    Will 290k be the snapping point that will get people onto the streets running amok? Will it need to be a million?

    Or is it time sensitive? Will parents lose the plot after another 3 years of their adult children stuck in the home? 9 years?

    Will homelessness need to reach 30k, or 90k?

    Again, this is only housing as an indicator, but there is no chance this can be continued indefinitely. The conclusion is simply a question of when, not if, the line of no return is crossed.

    The modus operandi of this economy is demonstrably not fit for purpose, yet it is held above all as THE target to chase at the expense of all else. Year after year. Crazy.

    Patience is gone. The breaking point number will be seen eventually.

    Anyone who sees the current trends as neverending and the correct course that people want and or need is out of their mind.

    Call it hyperbole all you want, but I can well imagine this ridiculous point in Irish history being mentioned alongside the famine in time to come. Societal destruction ushered in by greed and utter disregard for the inevitability of cause and effect. With as much fondness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,443 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,443 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    It is seen as beneficial arrangement , hard fought for , and like dual British and Irish citizenship for those born in Northern Ireland .

    So your point as to how this restriction would be beneficial is ???



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭batman_oh


    deleted



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,612 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    That is absolutely true, but even ordinary Irish citizens had their personal freedoms impacted on to a quite huge degree : it was considered a time of national emergency.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




This discussion has been closed.
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