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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,706 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Far as I recall there was a report by a New Zealand soil expert a few years ago - not exactly sure when - that gave the global emissons from tillage at between 15 - 20%. I know min-till etc is being promoted and is being carried out by tillage farmers, but for all the credit they will get from these anti agriculture articles they might as well not bother.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That's a bullshit statement of pure ignorance. The energy is there in superabundance, you just need mechanisms to access it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I stand to be corrected on it. I'll have a read around. No one in ag will get credit. One of the only areas to reduce emissions last year and FotE pissed all over that achievement yet applauded transport which increased emissions. Tillage lads can thank their lucky stars they don't have cows. Cows are enemy #1 at the minute. Tillage should be grateful they are flying under the radar. Tillage isn't even considered when it comes to nitrates, once again it's the cow despite tillage being a bigger leacher of N, a higher user of *icides and chemical fertiliser.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not sure you looked at what that scorecard is actually measuring



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Will Happer a nut job? Maybe have a look at his scientific credentials and his actual papers. Or simply watch the many youtube videos w him as a guest and/or presentations. My guess is you won't for obvious reasons. Nobody will debate him. There seems to be a blacklist of people nobody invites because they actually are experts in their field and considered too dangerous to the alarm narrative. To name a few: Will Happer, Richard Lindzen, Judith Curry. All pretty much out of the claws of the establishment.



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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I wonder if there's a reason climate denier whacko's don't get invited to serious debates

    I'm sure there's one, I just can't think of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Coolcormack1979


    All Greta devotee’s.they’ll soon realise the real world is different.and I’m sure they will not want to jump on a plane to head off to find themselves in Oz.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lve followed Linzens career for over a decade at this stage. None of his ideas about climate have stood up to scrutiny or been published as scientific papers, which is the test of a scientific theory as it allows others to confirm or disprove an assertion. He held onto his academic position simply because he had tenure and they couldn't sack him.

    He's frankly an embarrassment to his institution and science in general, and he's a fundamentalist Christian - which is where I suspect his errors begin.

    If you think he has anything meaningful to say about climate you obviously know squat about the field.



  • Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The following is an example of the horse sh*t peddled by Greens. Martha O'Hagan, Associate Professor of Finance at TCD opined on forestry in Ireland. She claims that Sitka Spruce matures and is harvested at 15 years, and the land replanted with Sitka, and seems to imply that the landowner is given a second bite of the cherry with new planting grants and yearly income. Total nonsense. I hope her business ability is better than her forestry knowledge.

    SSitka Has a rotation of between 30-45 years., and no, there are no replanting grants or 15 to 20 year premia for the second rotation.

    To my mind, nobody has called her out on this




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,222 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Probably getting confused by thinnings after 15 years.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,699 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    There are only so many rare earths, lithium, etc that's needed for the capture and/or storage.

    There's also the issue that if the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine, your green basket hasn't any other eggs. It doesn't matter how much energy exists in the cosmos if you cannot harness it as required. But you can live in your world of superabundant energy (and darkness without hydrocarbon backup) all you want.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If you want to over simplify things to make your point go ahead and be my guest.

    Sodium batteries are entering production - no need for lithium or rare elements. They are approaching the energy density of Lithium but at a fraction of the material cost. They are capable of rolling out massive battery storage using one of the most abundant elements on the planet. This is just one of the promising battery technologies currently in active development.

    It is rare that their is both no wind and no solar - and as more offshore wind comes on line that becomes even rarer. Interconnects spread the load sharing even further and make the grid even more robust as on a continental scale there are always sources of renewables. Guess what - that is the long standing strategy of the EU to create a continental wide HVDC grid moving renewables all the way from Iceland (geothermal) to Spain (massive solar). All with technology that is mature and implementable right now.

    Meanwhile solar has reached 30% conversion rates and there is no reason to claim that it will not go higher as it is still an active area of fundamental research.

    But here's the kicker - the big energy suppliers know this, they have known all this for decades - and you know how you can tell - because they stopped investing in their stranded assets at the point when their own research revealed the game was up for them.

    None of this claims to be the only options available - these are just the ones available now today - research is making breakthroughs in every field of alternative energy and so the limitations of the technology as they stand today are not the limitations of the technologies tomorrow and the next year.


    You gave away your utter cluelessness when you let your little thermodynamics quip slip - better retire and stop embarrassing yourself.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 542 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No she said it matures at 15 and is replanted and that landowners get replanting grants and another round of premia.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭roosterman71




  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Again, I'm not sure you understand what the scorecard is actually measuring.

    It's a grading of the progress of the govt in relation to the commitments made in the program for Government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,699 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    I'm not too sure what you find wrong with my comment, but it isn't incorrect. Technology is always telling us the next big thing is just around the corner. Small modular reactors have been promised for decades. Hydrogen has been the great green hope for the last 5 years, yet nothing commercial has materialised at scale. It takes time for these things to come to market. Especially when conversion and storage losses start stacking up and someone has to pay for them.

    If you are putting all your backup eggs on proven technology like interconnectors, then you truly are deluded. The UK suffers similar weather patterns as ourselves so won't have capacity to spare. What's the incentive for France to share it's excess nuclear in times of crisis? Even if they wanted to, we're joining a pan European market and flows will be scheduled from France to it's AC connected neighbours long before anything comes across Celtic due to the losses. In this case, it's the laws of economics as much as thermodynamics. That's As for Spain and Iceland - the distances are astronomical even for HVDC, that's before you factor in the extreme depths and the state of the seabed floor. If the Celtic Interconnector is costing over €1.5B, going to either of those two will be many multiples of that. Neither Spain nor Iceland are particularly affluent so who pays for it, especially when there's very little benefit for them?

    You are the one embarrassing yourself at this rate, listing all these solutions that may never come to pass and even if they do, at what cost? The fundamentals are the same no matter what technology you pick. There's no magic tap you can just turn on and have safe, secure and economic electricity and there's unlikely to be one in the next 6.25 years for 2030 targets.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How much did the current electrical infrastructure cost in today's terms ?

    The costs are comparable to the cost of renewables so your objections are simply more anti green hysteria. Whilst you cry the infrastructure is been built today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Right. Let's have a look. What's in the PfG on ag that justifies a mark for 4, versus what is in it for transport that warrants a 6, despite transport increasing emissions and ag declining. Was the PfG saying they wanted transport emissions to rise?

    There's also the possibility that things change once the government is in place and react to world events. Unfair to criticise them on such instances, even if the decisions made are against what was set out in the PfG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,706 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The capacity factor for solar here is around 11%, Higher in Summer, lower in Winter so pretty much meh as far as the grid is concerned. We have had extended periods where wind generation here was as low as 6% when wind also dropped off all over Europe. Just 10% of Spain`s electricity is generated by solar (half of that generated by nuclear) and Iceland generates 29% of its electricity using geothemal, (71% from hydro), so you would be a long time waiting for either to make up the drop off from wind here. Let alone the rest of Europe.

    We do not have plans here for sodium batteries to stop the grid from collapsing during extended periods of low wind. Our plan consists of 30 Gigawatts offshore and hydrogen storage with half for domestic use (6 Gigawatts) and the same for hydrogen. Not only would the capital costs alone be horrendous for that 30 Gigawatt, plus all the hydrogen add-on too the consumer, (as well as the cost of that electricity even if it`s not required or used), which would have to be paid for by the consumer, plus the operational costs of both the generation and hydrogen, plus the profit margin over the lifetime of the contract. After that we would be back on the never ending cycle of the same again for the capital costs of the offshore 30 Gigawatts.

    The costs of that proposed plan are so horrendous that even for greens who believe in magic money trees know how insane it is and run away anytime when asked, yet somehow have no problem quoting chapter and verse on costs and timelines for any proposals their ideology does not like.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The High Court has granted FIE leave to take a legal challenge against the govt as they say the 2023 Climate Action Plan fails to show how legally binding reductions in greenhouse gas emissions can be delivered.

    The case is due to be heard on Nov 6th

    FIE is taking the case in a follow-up to its landmark 2020 win when the Supreme Court ruled that the climate plan at that time was too vague and lacking in ambition. The court ruled at the time that failure to be specific about how climate action targets would be met meant the plan did not comply with the requirements of the 2015 Climate Act. It was only the second time globally that a government had been held to account by the courts for weak climate action.




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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    2 interesting bits of news from the UK

    First up, the effective ban on onshore wind is to be removed after a group of Tories challenged Rishi Sunak on the stupidity of it

    The big push for more oil and gas exploration in the North sea has not materalised as most companies are not willing to invest

    One of the big reasons is they see the next govt being led by Labour and know the current pro-pollution stance of Rishi will be killed off



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,699 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Over the last 140 odd years? Who knows what the total was, but it was delivered incrementally, not in one big bang in 6 years. Or even in 26. It was largely centrally planned and delivered maximum social welfare returns for the investment, on top of the secure supply benefits.

    I'm not sure why you think I'm crying, in fact, it feels the other way around. Things aren't going your way. Boo hoo. Meanwhile, I'm responsible for delivering and operating a huge part of the change (over 10% of the overall electricity demand in Ireland) which is why I'm more than aware of the costs and the supply constraints with very little economic justification beyond European Regulation and some political will. Those things can change once the general population realises that it's their pockets being plundered to line those of a chosen few. Because let's face it, the main beneficiaries are those paying Whinge Energy Ireland and ISEA big cheques. Why do lobby groups need 50+ staff when you and a few others do their bidding for free?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,252 ✭✭✭ginger22


    And can they meet the court costs if it goes against them.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't see how it can go against them given the Supreme Court ruling and the challenge they are mounting is in line with that ruling.

    That being said, they have won and lost cases in the past and I've seen no issue with payments of costs but maybe you have more info you'd like to share



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Probably no costs if it's brought under "environmental" grounds. The taxpayer covers those cases



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    increase adoption of EV's gathers pace in more and more countries with many hitting the point of no return in the adoption curve over the last year

    You can see more on the Bloomberg report here




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,706 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    For someone who keeps telling us to follow the science, I`m surprised you appear to believe that 5% regarded as the tipping point.

    Davis Centola professor of communications and sociology at the University of Pennsylvania in his book "How to Make Great Things Happen" puts it at 25%. As does the publicaton Scientific America.

    Lower than that it`s a meh that can go either way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Essentially you have an NGO that is defacto arm of the Green party using a privite limited company to sue the taxpayers via their agent the government Cut the taxpayer funding to An Taisce, that will stop them.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,706 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I`m guessin that the FIE are not looking to the High Court to clear up the vugueness around how much this climate action plan will cost taxpayers ?

    As the taxpayer is funding all their trips to courts it`s the least they could do.



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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Clarification on the "tipping point" comment from earlier, it relates to the adoption S curve

    image.png

    Its seen with all new technologies though the S is becoming more condensed with modern technologies

    image.png

    The "tipping point" generally comes around the 5% mark

    We can see similar with Ireland's adoption of EV's. For years the share of EV sales was less than 1% then started climbing slowly at first but rapidly gained momentum

    • 2015 - 0.39%
    • 2016 - 0.28%
    • 2017 - 0.49%
    • 2018 - 1.01%
    • 2019 - 3.04%
    • 2020 - 4.67%
    • 2021 - 8.42%
    • 2022 - 15.36%

    Note, I'm only including BEV's in the figures above

    Source CSO TEM12 tables



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