The Wolfe Tones

Micheal Martin used belt out Wolfe Tone songs in college in Cork.

He is as profoundly anti republican as any politician North or South as you can find.

There's a reason why there has been very little peace on this island for centuries. Some support or excuse the subjugation of Irish people while others support those who stood up to this subjugation.

No one should apologise for supporting the PIRA. Same as the other Republican groups before them and any freedom fighters from this island. Standing up against tyranny is deserving of praise.

The part where they murdered civilians including Catholics by the truckload. The part where they murdered Gardai and Irish soldiers. The part where they deliberately unleashed 27 years of nihilism. The part where they protected paedophiles and rapists, as they still do.

You clearly have no problem with any of this.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Look, you can support the the subjugation of Irish people if you want but don't expect others to back you up on that. Freedom fighters from the Fenians to the PIRA, the old IRA, the IRB, United Irishmen and so on will always be heroes to most of us. We should be forever grateful to their bravery. It isn't perfect but there would be none of us left if people like you had their way. You're just going to have to lump it. Up the RA!

They weren't our forces. The forces of this state are the Garda Siochana and Oglaigh na hEireann, the Irish Defence Forces.

Do you count the "Real IRA" who perpetrated the Omagh bomb as "your forces"?

You forgot the "Real IRA" who did Omagh and the "New IRA" who shot Lyra McKee dead. They're obviously heroes to you too.

I don't count any of them as "my" forces. I don't have any skin in the game. My interest in this is purely from an historical POV. I am more interested in fact, rather than trying put forth a "certain point of view".

What I do object to, however, are attempts to frame the conflict in particular ways in an effort to try and score silly political points on a public forum. I also firmly object to trying to make it out like the IRA were acting in a vacuum, when there was a ton of atrocity being carried out by all parties concerned. Your posts on this thread, and the ones form the usual Unionist supporting members of Boards.ie, are particularly bent towards that direction. Always very clear in highlighting the excesses of one side, while consistently omitting the equally atrocious actions of the likes of the RUC, UDA, UFF, UVF, the British Army and even the British government.

The facts are the PIRA murdered civilians by the truckload including Catholics, plunged NI into 27 years of nihilism, and protected paedophiles and rapists.

No context can excuse any of these facts.

And as the more realistic of their ranks referred to the GFA - Got **** All.

You ranting is out of control.

Get a grip on yourself.

I've given you simple and hard facts. You're obviously at the stage where you've completely run out of argument so you just choose to dismiss facts you dislike as a "rant". That's what happens when you choose to believe a fake, Disneyfied version of history.

Pitifully weak debating on your part.

No lad, you've given the thread nothing but a one sided load of biased rants. Step back and address yourself.

You have the temerity to talk of a "Disneyfied" version of history? You've been the biggest proponent of that, by far.

Quite a disingenuous response. If the Wolve Tones had a bit more musical gravitas you would have less of a problem as is your position with Rule Britannia….I mean that song that glorifies the butchering and pillaging of millions is a little jauntier so not as bad?

Your position is you have more of a problem with one side, at least be honest.

Myself I am no fan of either, but I think a bunch of kids singing Wolve tone songs versus a bunch singing rule Britannia can be equated and neither in general mean a whole lot of harm by it.

This thread has gathered no moss. Lol

It was always a low bar, but the quality of these Shinnerbots appears to be getting worse if anything.

Yep. That was a perfect prediction. Lovers of FG/the Black and Tans still hurt over the utter embarassment they faced.

One of the 12 July parties was quite literally all over the news last year 2022, where quite a few of them lost their jobs for singing about Michaela McAreavey being murdered ffs.

You can draw a dividing line on perceptions around these topics between those old enough to spend years being exposed to section 31 constrained state propaganda in the media; and those too young for same.

The sad part is the former group don’t even recognise / understand the extent of those constraints.

Not that I think the Irish State did the wrong thing by enacting Section 31 powers as it did, nor do I feel the British State was “wrong” necessarily to employ a vast array of censorship, special forces and state craft to supplement their military during the conflict. There was a war on, and both States moved to aggressively protect their interests throughout.

The irony is that those exposed to those war time conditions and constraints were successfully conditioned to struggle to accept that it was, indeed, a war. Young people are free of these mental burdens, and it’s a great thing that should be celebrated.

I'm also grateful for Britain's important role in the crushing of Nazism in World War II.

You must love the Russians then, because they’re the reason WWII was won.

Would I be right in saying that all the ranting and raving and bastardisation of history has nothing to do with a song and all to do with how FG are doing in the polls?

Who knows? Could also be a distraction from what the 'real' Tories are doing with the Legacy Bill. Here we are discussing etiquette (that's all this story is about really) while the real story is elsewhere.

"Cool" especially in music is not a constant. The variables to be labelled cool are constantly changing and evolving.

It used be cool for our rock/pop stars to be found in their hotel room with a loaded revolver past out beside a semi conscious drug addled hooker.

Then it became cool to promote veganism and fair trade.

Just look at the day time acts at Glastonbury. In particular this year Rick Astley who when I was growing up was the literal opposite of cool.

To be fair to Astley from what I saw of it him and Queens of the Stone Age had by far the best sets out of the whole festival at least in terms of getting the audience going.

OK, a group of youngish people at EP, some high on drink and/or drugs, young enough to not have lived through the times when the IRA murdered our Gardai and Irish army, among countless civilians, did go to the Wolfe Tones. However it is a credit to the people of Ireland that 99% of people did not go.

In DeValera time, DeVelera and the Irish government executed some IRA prisoners. 99% of the people were fine with that too, there was no outcry. During the troubles, SF had a miniscule vote here in the Republic. It is amazing how some young people now do not understand the past.

I would say the same if a band got up on a stage in N.I. and with a sound system and loudspeakers whipped a crowd of thousands up in to a frenzy chanting UDA slogans. Very dangerous stuff. Both I would feel very sad about.

If you're to accept that rationale you'd have to accept that the spate of Al Qaeda/ISIS bombings/atrocities in Europe over the last 20 years was not terrorism but a war, or that September 11th was part of a war, not terrorism.

I'd categorise it as terrorism rather than a war.