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Why some people think 9/11 was an inside job

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But the alternate explanation is even odder though you'd have to agree.

    If the passport wasn't able to survive, and it's too suspicious and obviously fake, there'd be no reason for the conspirators to do it.

    It doesn't benefit them and it only exposes the conspiracy. It would be very odd for them to do this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Melting wasn't the cause of the collapse. Weakening (and warping/expansion) of steel was. As a result of fire.

    There were plenty of hot and molten metals. Conspiracy believers confused that with molten steel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    I already said that.

    Could be a double bluff. Sounds ridiculous but not as ridiculous as a paper passport from a hijacker being miraculously found.

    I think that there is an awful lot more that happened that day that is being withheld



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    No, it can't be a double bluff. If they wanted to keep the conspiracy secret, there'd be no benefit to bringing up the possibility of a conspiracy.

    But to pull this off, they'd have to have this fake passport made, dressed up to look like it had been damaged, then planted somewhere and hope that it's found. All for no benefit.

    That is not less ridiculous than perishable items surviving a plane crash.


    The idea of a fake passport only seems plausible if you don't think about it in too much detail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Okay, but it's your personal opinion that it's ridiculous and that more is being withheld. The facts speak differently.

    As mentioned, perishable stuff survived the impacts, that included passports.


    Below is a piece of paper from one of the planes


    ID cards, tickets, etc


    One of the hijackers passports




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  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    I was just adding my 2c to the conversation bud.

    I think the odds of finding a hijackers passport, in relatively good condition, in amongst the rubble of two skyscrapers, who were brought down by two planes slamming into them and creating massive fireballs, are exceptionally remote.

    Haven't even mentioned the whole "pentagon plane" that still hasn't been able to give us even a mediocre quality video of the crash despite a building like that being under surveillance constantly.

    Don't think that's even a little bit tin-foil hat territory top be a little dubious that we aren't being given all the info.

    But I only add my 2c when something piques my interest slightly. Feel free to ignore



  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    Yeah cool.

    I don't believe that the hijackers passport would be found so quickly.

    Just my opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    That's perfectly fine. Some people can't believe we're on a ball spinning at 1,000 mph through space or e.g. that we landed on the moon.

    It's always important to note that disbelief isn't a valid argument against anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yes. As am I. I'm just pointing out there's a bit of a contradiction in your suggestion.

    Ok. You don't believe it's plausible that the passport can be found.

    But you do believe it's plausible that the government faked a passport, simulated damage to it, planted it, paid off the people behind all of this, made sure that no official investigators coped to this obviously impossible piece of evidence and also then created more fake items to cover the idea that the passport could survive... all for no benefit and for no reason.


    We also seem to be Gish Galloping to the next point before the previous point can be hashed out. But there we also run into a contradiction.

    The conspirators went to all of this trouble to fake a passport, but didn't try to fake some footage. That's very odd.

    (We'll leave aside the even more ridiculous things people believe for why they can't show the video from the pentagon.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    The Saudi passport did not come down with the building. According to the official report, the passport was inside the plane somewhere and blew out of the building when the plane impacted the North Tower

    If you believe the later report was handed over to an unnamed police officer, as the story goes on Vesey Street, Which is a street adjacent to WTC7. We don't know who handed it over or who the unnamed cop was who received it. All we know is the story that they told.

    The lack of any of the black boxes from the planes in the rubble is also odd. Why is there not even a metal piece of the black box anywhere in the rubble? Remember, you guys believe all that is happening here is that the structural steel buckled and collapsed the structure.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    Three scientists who wrote the FEMA study found evidence of melting steel. The only people dismissing this are debunkers and NIST collapse believers.

    Even mentioned in the final summary, the unusual melting that occurred could have contributed to the weakening of the tower's steel structure. The science doesn't rule out that melting was going on before the Towers collapsed. This is only you people saying it never happened that way.

    The debunker don't understand what the summary is saying; that's not my problem

    Open the report and read the summary. I screenshot it here. Where does it say that melting could not have happened before the collapse?

    https://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf

    Another reason this is false is that FEMA's report states that the liquid observed was primarily liquid iron. Why is NIST making false claims here when scientists saw WTC steel that had liquefied?




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    So they went to the trouble of faking a passport which is obviously fake and exposes the conspiracy. But they weren't bothered to fake black boxes.

    That makes zero sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Conspiracy believers point at this report because the word "melt" was in it.

    Read further down, it states temps didn't hit over an estimated 1000c. Steel doesn't melt at that temp. A eutectic compound can though, one that contains iron.

    Cheerful what's the definition of a eutectic compound?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    To repeat again, note how CS, like Alex Jones and all "9/11 truthers" search for perceived anomolies or anything they don't understand as "evidence" of a conspiracy they deftly never explain.

    Sandy Hook, moon landing hoax, etc all use the same technique. "Oh look in this photo there's a strange rock, must be a conspiracy".

    It's a gigantic red flag in academia, yet it's the cornerstone of all these types of conspiracy beliefs. Deny the facts to hint at a conspiracy that never gets explained.

    I'll ask again, who "blew up" the buildings on 9/11? What if one of the planes missed or grazed the building and it was all exposed? Why would any "planner" take such an absurd risk like that "just for show"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,575 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    ...

    Lest we forget, Cheerful's a holocaust denier as well. Important to remind readers who they're dealing with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,839 ✭✭✭✭The Nal




  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again if the conspiracy wanted to orchestrate an attack, the simplest, most effective thing they could do would be to hire guys to fly planes into the buildings.


    Also I remember part of the claim was they they had to do it this way with thermite and such because they had to destroy documents. The only way to do so is apparently is with elaborate fake hijackings and experimental explosives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,839 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    And tens of thousands of documents ended up scattered all over the city anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Perhaps to prevent this, the conspirators sent people ahead to shred to documents to make sure they didn't get scattered accidentally... oh wait...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    It is important to note this reference, the FEMA report is not the only source of information on the topic. Other reports during and after the event confirm the findings of the FEMA report. The problem with debunkers is that they ignore the rest of the information and pick out only the parts they like.

    There is Twin Tower video evidence of hot liquid fluid pouring out of the window before the collapse, Many eyewitnesses on site saw the liquid in the rubble, and FEMA itself said the steel was liquefied based on their limited study done in 2002 before any conspiracy talk was mentioned.

    Here is your proof that the steel melted.


    The scientists behind this paper are of the theory that a sulfidation attack took place. In theory, sulfur may reduce the melting point of steel. It would melt at temperatures much lower than the normal melting point of steel. How would steel melt without sulfur? That would be a whole new set of questions.

    Working with the assumption that sulfur was the major driving force behind the steel melting here. The origin of this cannot be traced. Where did sulfur jump from to appear on the steel? NIST never bothered to investigate it. This is still unknown because NIST never studied the chemical composition of the steel or the sulfur, so there is no evidence of where the sulfur may have come from.

    When NIST ignores evidence from people who were present during the clean-up, is that really a conspiracy? When was it obvious they had done so? Why is it a problem for debunkers when people want to know things here?

    It is clear that NIST is not being transparent about the events of 9/11 and is ignoring the evidence that has been presented to them. This raises concerns about the integrity of their 9/11 building investigation and the motives behind their refusal to look further into the matter.

     People use the same logic in the UFO thread. They pick and choose what they want to believe. Commander Fravor, a highly decorated fighter pilot, couldn't have seen a craft that did all the things he claimed. Many people in the thread are looking for ways to explain away Commander Fravor's UFO account, rather than considering the possibility that it is true. In the same way, the hot liquid was witnessed by those who were actually there and saw the molten steel, which has been officially confirmed by FEMA since 2002.

    It's not what the debunkers believe happened here, so they'll keep denying it's all just a conspiracy. In order to downplay the information from one conspiracy, debunkers here often introduce false conspiracy information into the conversation. A tactic to manipulate the debate and turn people off.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    The term eutectic simply means a solid substance turned into a liquid. I'm not sure what you're trying to ask specifically here. 

    In case, here referring to the Iron content of the steel and the sulfur.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Read your own link, the FEMA study.

    Eutectics have a "single melting temperature, which is usually lower than that of any of the constitutive compounds". What were those compounds in your quote? Iron, Oxygen and hint, hint, Sulphur. Melting point of Sulphur? 115c

    TLDR some corrosion on the steel beams melted

    Conspiracy TLDR; 911 conspiracy believers thought this report claimed steel beams themselves fully melted. Yes I doubt they read the report either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    Taking bets:

    1. Double down
    2. Gish gallop onto something else
    3. Go back to denying the NIST


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,352 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How has 4. AE911 been doing, next thing out in 2 weeks TM?

    "Indictment" 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Still making money after all these years. From conspiracy theorists.

    It's almost tempting..



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    121k salary a year from milking a conspiracy. Laughing all the way to the bank.





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    No, they don't at all. The FEMA study is used to support the accurate version that steel melted, which weakened the steel structure before it collapsed. Nobody claims that all the steel in the Twin Towers melted down.

    Those you call conspiracy theorists have a genuine problem with NIST because they claim there is no evidence at all of molten liquid iron in the debris pile, and no video or photographs of this phenomenon were taken before the collapse. In addition, they claimed that eyewitnesses did not mention molten steel, on video or anywhere else.

    There is no disputing the evidence that the steel had melted. Photographs, videos, and eyewitness reports support the claim of molten steel at Ground Zero.

    Why did they engage in denial when there is a FEMA report?

    It was an ill-advised response, as it only served to fuel conspiracy theories about the events of 9/11. NIST should have acknowledged the FEMA evidence and offered an explanation for why it was likely caused by the fires.

    The fact that WTC 5 and 6 and others are on fire and none of these anomalies are present makes this discovery even odder. It seems like the phenomenon, is only there for Building 7 and the Twin Towers.

    It has already been explained to you that FEMA's working theory is that sulfur reduces steel's melting point by 500 degrees Celsius. The sulfuric chemical compound caused the attack. This theory was crafted because the cooled phased steel showed high concentrations of elementary sulfides. This may have caused it to melt at a significantly lower temperature than usual.

    The iron in steel examples did not melt What happened? This is very strong A36-grade steel with holes in it; that liquid slag must go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear into Neverland. There is a fair amount of iron missing from this hole. Claiming there is no Iron missing from this steel example simply doesn't add up. Steel columns and beams are designed with tight-fitting connections to ensure that they stay firmly in place and don't come apart. Without tight-fitting connections, the steel columns and beams won't be able to transfer the load evenly and could fail due to uneven stresses. There would be a lot of stress if the connections melted.




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I see you've chosen a mixture of options 1,2 and 3.

    Here's what you linked:

    From the authors of that report:


    The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel


    There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.


    Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.


    A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.


    A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.


    "The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."


    Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.


    From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.



    The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow. (Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community."

    Pretty clear to me.

    Amazed they didn't find the auld nanothermite burns on this obviously corroded steel.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Cheerful S


    You copied and dumped text without providing a link. Where did you get it? It reads like an interview. To better understand what is being said, please give the link source:

    First impressions.

    Wrong, I still stand by my point. They don't know if this phenomenon took place after the collapse or before it. Started before the collapse, then clearly not a corrosion attack. Corrosion takes a long time, the South Tower collapsed in 40 minutes.

    From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "

    Again, what is overlooked and what is so special about building seven fires is that you have a mystery like this.

    This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

    Plastics and rubber have existed in other fires, but steel has not shown up like this before. We wouldn't be calling it a mystery otherwise here.

    The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation

    All is well and good, but not really answering anything as far as sulfur content is concerned. Theories, not answers.

    rubber or plastics, ocean salts,acid rain. 



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