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11811 - does it even work anymore?

  • 05-09-2023 9:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    I range 11811 directory enquiries today and couldn’t get through. It’s the third time in the last few months I’ve done this and haven’t been connected. What’s going on? Is it still owned by eircom?



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭RurtBeynolds


    11811 costs a few euro these days. Why are you even using it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,932 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    It's the most expensive at at least €4 per minute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    11811 is still licenced for directory enquiries. It may not work from all phone networks anyway; and is one of the dearest

    This claims to have the cheapest prices for the various services.

    If you have internet access you will find the same info for free - that is all these services do, basically.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    In which case why do they still exist? Does eir still operate 11811?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because some people still call them and one call could pay for an hours wages for a staff member.

    Nobody other than eir can answer that, basically. These services are all in their dying years and could be withdrawn at any moment.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How? Eir don't publish the phone book (online or anywhere) anymore because of GDPR



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Eir don't publish the phonebook cause it stopped making money. It is not because of GDPR

    GDPR gets blamed for absolutely piles of stuff it has nothing to do with.

    Anyone in the phonebook gave explicit consent to be listed.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Eir don't publish the online phone book because of GDPR specifically, the physical book because of costs. You didn't give explicit consent to be listed, you had to explicitly withdraw your consent to not be listed which wasn't compatible with GDPR - everyone was listed unless they requested to be ex directory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Provide links to prove this claim please.

    The online phonebook was provided by Truvo, who went bust. That is why it is gone.

    Any GDPR restriction on one of online/print would entirely apply to the other, by the way.

    Also note that a few other countries to which GDPR applies still produce paper phonebooks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    In any case, why didn’t they answer my call on three different days?


    11811 used to promote themselves very well, I have a stress ball, pen and phone holder with 11811 branding from years ago, and I remember this ad from around the time of 9/11



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  • Businesses are all on Google/online searches and most mobile numbers were never listed, so the whole concept of phonebooks became redundant.

    If you're looking for ANYTHING now you go to a search engine. If you went back 20+ years ago you probably went to the Golden Pages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    11811 seem to still be going strong however considering they were state subsidised as part of Telecom Éireann and then eircom.

    How are the private competitors like 11890 doing?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,260 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Eir is a private company which does not receive state subsidies. This has been the case for nearly a quarter of a century.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    Yes but when 11811 was founded it was subsidised by the state. We effectively had a state-owned telephone directory enquiries service payed for by the taxpayer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,260 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't know that it was ever subsidised by the state.

    Remember, directory enquiries used to be free. Back in the day when telcos made the bulk of their revenue from fixed line call charges, encouraging and facilitating the making of phone calls made good business sense. Directory enquiries were provided for free because the cost of providing them was more than covered by the revenue earned in the calls that followed. We know this because, even in countries where the phone service was wholly private, directory enquiries were typically free.

    So, even in the days when the telephone system in Ireland was a government department, and was providing a directory enquiry service for free, I don't think the directory enquiry service required a taxpayer subsidy; it paid for itself in the additional call revenue generated.

    Over time the telco business model changed, and this ceased to be true. That's why a paid-for directory enquiry service was introduced, some time in the 80s, I think. But the very fact that charges were introduced would indicate that the government wasn't subsidising it. Plus this happened, if my memory is correct, after the time that P&T was reorganised as a state-owned, but not state-subsidised, company, so the government would not have been inclined to subsidise it.

    It was also at the same time that rival directory enquiry services (also paid-for) were introduced, and this argue strongly against a state subsidy for the TE service. Competition law rules would forbid the government subsidising a state-owned company to provide a directory enquiry service in direct competition with a commercial competitor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭A Law


    I was at a function a maybe 8 years ago where the founder of 11890, or one of the ones that isn't 11811, was a speaker. Basically she spoke about finding a new business model as they had become obsolete so now her staff monitor social media for things like Bank ATMs malfunctions and report them to the relevant people. They mainly did it at night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    If eir sells off 11811 what improvements would need to be made so it can get back on top of the directory enquiries market? Reducing costs is an obvious one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,932 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Who'd buy it? The model is outdated. Nobody needs it. Many numbers are ex-directory and no one comms company has the rights to all numbers, either landline or mobile.





  • I don’t think it is was. When Telecom Eireann was around it would have been 1190 and TE was run commercially. It was never subsidised for day to day operations. The customers paid (a lot relative to today) and the company generated revenues well over a billion a year. It was a profitable regulated state owned commercial monopoly until the mid 1990s

    TE ceased to exist in 1999.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭dublincc2


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    11890 usually does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,260 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    When you say "reducing costs", what you actually mean is reducing revenue. There's no viable future there.

    Back in the day, telcos provided directory enquiry services for free — they generated zero revenue themselves — because it led to more phone calls being made. But if, as you suggest, eir sells off its directory enquiry service, the provider of the service has no interest in more phone calls being made; they don't sell phone calls. A free-standing directory enquiry service is viable only if it charges the users of the service. And, even then, it's only viable if potential users of the service value it enough to pay the charges.

    For the reasons already pointed out in this thread, very few people are willing to pay for directory enquiries, since there are a variety of free alternatives that provide most of the information you might seek. Thus, fewer and fewer people use the paid service. Thus, to maintain viability, charges must go up and up — if the fixed cost of providing the service is divided among fewer and fewer users, each use must pay more.

    Eventually you reach a point where the service simply isn't viable. I think we're probably at that point now.





  • An EU directive in the late 90s brought in competitive directory enquiry services using the prefix 118 -

    11811 was launched by Eircom alongside other companies’ offerings. The most heavily advertised was probably 11 8 50 which was run by a company called Conduit.

    Then along came smartphones and the whole market changed and directory enquiries services rapidly became irrelevant.

    In most telephone networks in the old days, directory information was just a free or cheap operator service and it was just seen as part of what the phone company did. It probably drove revenue by making it more likely people would make phone calls, so they just provided it as a service.

    Back in the day operator services were commonly used to get information, but also get help with connections etc. Telephone companies everywhere had thousands of operators who were permanent employees had very little to do as the networks became increasingly automated.

    There was manual operator intervention required to make long distance calls in every system, which was replaced by automated long distance services from the late 50s onwards, so from the 50s to the 80s operators became rapidly less and less relevant, so all over the world the telcos, which were usually big monopolies, deployed them into other areas and that’s probably why you’d free directory information etc etc

    There hasn’t been any kind of ability to call an operator here since 2007 and I don’t think there ever was on mobiles etc

    You used to be able to call them to do all sorts of stuff, reverse charge, charge card calls etc etc by dialling 10 here.

    You often still can reach an operator on 100 in the UK, 0 in North America etc etc I have absolutely no idea why anyone would be calling an operator in 2023 though.

    Basically you might as well be discussing the merits of gramophones and steam engines. All of this stuff is dead technology and 11811 was never a tax payer funded service and it’s almost a quarter of a century since Telecom Eireann was state owned, and 40 years since it became fully a fully commercial state owned company and over 41 years since the first digital phone services went live here … so you’re really getting into a bygone era!

    Nobody is going to be investing in directory info services. Everyone is carrying a computer around with them with unprecedented abilities to search for anything.

    The most likely outcome is these services will just cease to exist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭carfinder


    This is untrue. as another poster pointed out, the default was that everyone was defaulted to be included in the phone directory and you had an option to request "ex-directory" - that is a fact. GDPR established a much higher bar for explicit consent than such defaults. In line with your own demands of LahinchDog, in relation to your assertion above regarding explicit consent, Provide links to prove this claim please



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,260 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Per the Information Commissioner's website, if you are publishing telephone, email, etc directory, you must tell people and give them an opportunity to opt out. If you're publishing a reverse directory (i.e. one where you can look up a phone number and find whose number it is) you can only include people who expressly opt in.

    The same rules apply whether you publish the directory in paper form or online, or control access via an operator.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You're the one backing up the claim that's absolutely bobbins, not me.

    You need to provide the proof, and you won't be able to because it doesn't exist. Proving the negative isn't the requirement here, proving the claim is.

    Anyway, the post above mine explains it - for telephone directories - paper, online or directory enquiries - being informed and not taking the opt out is deemed legal consent. Always has been, GDPR did absolutely nothing to change that.

    People blaming GDPR for anything are almost universally doing so because they don't understand it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,798 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Not strictly true that directory services generated zero revenue. while calling directory enquiries was free the directory enquiry operator would offer to put you directly through to the number you wanted rather than hanging up and calling it yourself. There was a charge if the directory enquiry operator put you through directly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭carfinder


    So you are conceding that your assertion that "Anyone in the phonebook gave explicit consent to be listed." was in fact untrue, as I stated - the rest of your post is, to use your your own lexicon "absolutely bobbins" - a pretty ungracious way to admit you're wrong



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Nope. People gave consent by ordering a phoneline and not going unlisted, something everyone was made aware of. That is the legal situation.

    Your claim was based on the "but GDPR!" thing when GDPR has nothing to do with it and was hence entirely wrong. It was, and remains, bobbins.



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  • It’s pretty simple:

    We all have a powerful computer with us at all times. We can search for any information we need.

    People will not pay to have a call centre look up a number for them. It makes no sense when you can do it for free on your phone.

    Businesses used to advertise in the Golden Pages / Yellow Pages and that subsided the printing and distribution of phone books and the maintenance of databases.

    GDPR aside, nobody wants to have that overhead.

    There also isn’t just one telco anymore. There are umpteen VoIP and mobile providers and none of them see the need to maintain a complex directory.

    Almost all mobiles and most household landlines gradually became unlisted over the decades for privacy reasons and there’s a huge issue with spam calls.

    Also, phone books tended to list full addresses etc too

    Then add in that mobile numbers aren’t just phone numbers. They’re a unique digital address used for tons of other services. So that’s another data protection issue.

    The world moved on and we simply no longer use data in the way.

    If you want your phone number (or your email address or postal address) to be public you can put it on a website yourself, put it into Google maps, various business directories etc etc and it will be indexed by Google and other services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭carfinder


    Nope yourself. You claimed that "Anyone in the phonebook gave explicit consent to be listed". You have now pivoted to implied consent. You yourself have proven your original position to be untrue. Bobbins indeed. You're welcome



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Keep on spinning to deflect from your inaccurate ideas of the GDPR. Which was the entire point here

    At no stage was the point here about pedantry on what type of consent was given - consent was given and the GDPR doesn't apply.

    I'm completely done replying to pedantic trolling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭carfinder


    Sigh, yet again I am quoting your assertion that "Anyone in the phonebook gave explicit consent to be listed." Instead of conceding that you were wrong on that point, you make cowardly allegations of pedantic trolling, which I think is a breach of the charter but don't let that stop you.

    For someone who accuses others of inaccurate ideas of GDPR, you should be embarrassed to make an assertion that phonebook listings had given explicit consent when this is patently untrue.

    GDPR and the explicit consent hurdle is exactly why directory enquiry businesses didn't adapt their business model to provide services that would have market appeal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    When I got a phone line, I had to give consent to be listed, or refuse.





  • This is the data protection information regarding the NDD (National Directory Database) which is the information that all of the Directory Enquiry or online directories operator from:

    https://www.dataprotection.ie/index.php/en/organisations/rules-electronic-and-direct-marketing/ndd-faqs

    The current NDD manager is a company from the Netherlands called PortingXS, who also manage the database that is used for number portability between networks.

    They maintain and manage the database of numbers and names and addresses. You can opt in or opt out entirely, you can be listed so that you can only be seen on Directory Enquiries and you can also note that you don't accept marketing calls.

    Eir has no involvement in the management of the directories anymore. ComReg put it out to competitive tender and I don't think Eir really even wanted the business and just saw it as an overhead. So, it ended up with a specialist company that deal with numbering databases etc

    Eir ceased delivery of phonebooks to every house quite some time ago and they switched over to only delivering them to households who'd ordered them. Only around 2400 customers requested a phonebook, so the whole thing was just scrapped in 2020. They ceased to publish phone directories.

    Meanwhile, the company that was running the online phonebook has just given up on residential listings entirely. They're the company that owns Golden Pages. Again, that's a bit of a legacy business and not very useful anymore.

    There's no great business interest in publishing phone numbers anymore. It's dead tech.

    (On a side note, the porting system used in Ireland operates using a shared and central database, so when you make a call your phone company's servers look up a database to check to see where your number is hosted and the calls are sent to that provider. It's a bit like the way a DNS lookup works in concept, but it's not identical to that process.)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭Jb1989


    Looking a residential number for someone in the county.

    No phone book. Not online. So no other way I presume



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭oneweb


    Check with your phone provider - some block premium and/or costly numbers until you request otherwise.

    It is what it's.



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