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A global recession is on the horizon - please read OP for mod warning

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Communist **** holes, always have shortages, it's socialism 101.


    The problem is the dependence of western Europe on diesel, especially Russian diesel.


    For 20 years now, things like food security, energy security, national security have been vulgar topics in Western Europe, In the last 5, they are verging on heretical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    This is where the sanctions against Russia really kick in, the failure of maintenance and engineering to keep their cash cow oil industry moving.

    Venezuela even had to import oil recently because taking over private companies starved them of reinvestment.

    The only good I can see coming out of all this is more will towards renewables investment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Fiscal spending did contribute to inflation…if you remember energy prices had dropped massively at the time so if it was only energy driving it we should have seen massive deflation.

    i also haven’t seen anyone on the thread saying that credit was the cause of inflation…maybe you missed that point. What was said was that if central banks didn’t raise rates you would have more inflation driven by credit. What caused the inflationary period in the first place is irrelevant once it has taken hold.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    I think it's more complex than following the price of energy. There's always a lag. Like Ireland, we've only recently seen almost all suppliers beginning to drop gas & electricity prices. That will take sometime to feed into inflation figures. As for business, they energy costs increased and decreased much more quickly, however you will have some businesses benefit from contracts, company X will buy from company Y for a set price for the next 12 months. Energy prices increase rapidly and company Y takes the hit, company X continues to sell at the same price to the public and only increases their price when their contract renews at the higher price. It's why some items in the shops didn't increase for months after the rapid energy rise. Flip side is when energy costs come down, company Y benefits bit company X still pays a higher price and so do the consumers.

    It takes quite a long time for it to filter through to the inflation figure. You also have payrises given to offset the inflation, pay won't be reduced if we see a reduction in prices, so that's baked into the inflation figure for the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭Sammy2012


    Once the next tax increase goes on it won't be far off that price again. 52% of the current price goes to the government. There was a discussion on the radio the other day. Maybe the government should look at how they are contributing to inflation



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    We have a war that's disrupted the energy markets, Germany is more effected than us because they became dependent on Russia, add to that the Saudi's actually reducing supply to maximise return, and yet the mantra is fiscal stimulus and moving statues.

    Rate hikes are cooling anything, they're an extra boot on the neck.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,397 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....by any chance did deficit spending during covid go somewhat towards servicing property related debts? ...it probably prevented a major financial crisis.....

    ...has it contributed towards inflation, probably, but....

    .....and if inflation starts to rise again, will cb's start increasing the rate of rates again, and if so, what damage will that cause!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Fiscal spending was required and I agree it prevented a financial crash…. Was it overdone probably if you look at it in hindsight but it was impossible to tell at the time.

    if inflation rises yes Central banks will need to raise rates further otherwise inflation would explode due to the fact credit would be cheaper than the time value of money if they were to do nothing.

    And yes to much inflation is way worse than a recession for the simple fact that recession will come afterwards anyway but the severity and duration would be way worse because you create a credit bubble by not raising rates and future spending would have been brought forward meaning the recession will last longer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,397 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...but yet again, raising rates only truly effects the demand side, if inflation rises again, it wont be from the demand side, but yet again, from the supply side, raising rates just does astonishing damage to the demand side, squeezing our economies, slowing the velocity of the money supply, and then of course pressurizes our debt markets, and ultimately our ability to repay, play that game long enough, and you ll know all about it, our cb's are playing a very dangerous game....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    It could induce avoidable bankruptcy of businesses that could be investing in reducing their dependence on imported energy. Then governments across the zone have to supply unemployment supports all in the name of supporting a dubious rate rise orthodoxy.

    Right now now households and businesses are fighting on two fronts, high energy prices while paying higher interest payments.

    I don't have a link right now but a study I read found that the energy shocks in the 70s were less than 20% cause of the broader inflation. The overwhelming cause was the boomer driven expansion of the money supply. Rate rises to cool demand did work as a brake, but rate rises now are more like accelerant than coolant.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,397 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yea we re in different times, what worked in the past, may not, and probably wont, work now, again, we really are neck deep in the credit era, yet our major institutions such as cb's have a refusal to accept this reality, this is potentially very dangerous stuff, if defaults occur on a widescale, watch out....

    of course rates have been risen much higher in the past, but its the sheer amount of debt thats out there now, particularly in the private domain, a lot of which is based on ever rising asset prices, such as property, if values of such assets fall significantly and quickly, and the amounts required to be repaid keep rising....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    What's needed is more aggressive policy changes like higher taxation for empty units and vacant sites to induce supply.

    Ironically it's the boomer generation who drive policy that sweats property assets like the Saudi's reducing oil output to keep prices high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,397 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yea we re in desperate need of taxes such as lvt's and others as you mentioned...

    i wouldnt necessarily point the finger at older generations, most are just along for the ride, and yes they do play a part in the design of polices, but there doesnt seem to be much of an understanding by many of them either, many of them dont seem to understand the dangers involved, this is severely hurting them to, but they dont seem to understand that....



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Absolute nonsense. Rate rises now are the only thing preventing runaway inflation. Unless you think Turkey is a good example to follow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    Turkey was purposefully devaluing for many years beforehand, it's domestic inflation was out of control before even the pandemic.

    Rate rises are pissing in the wind against that.

    I guess you'll cite Argentina as comparable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Turkey gave in to populism for years and refused to raise rates to tackle inflation as it would impact those in debt, and lo behold inflation continued to spiral until they realised basic economic principles cannot be beaten and you must address the supply-demand curve to reduce inflation. They have this year raised rates by 15% so far, much worse than if they had acted sooner.

    Has history shown any examples of inflation just being wished away rather than credit rate hikes? If rates are not raised it becomes cheaper to borrow & buy now, than to buy later - which fuels demand further causing worse inflation. Are you saying the basic principles behind interest rates and their rising/lowering are defunct? Why don't the worlds central banks/economists/traders all know this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    People on fixed income suffer the most from inflation it’s well documented. So predominantly that means pensioners and people on social welfare….social welfare has increased but not people’s private pensions.

    As for inflation in the 70’s yes energy only accounted for 20% but it was the trigger that generated the other 80% because rates didn’t rise fast enough….it makes no difference whether it is pull or push inflation once it is established which it is now with strong secondary inflation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    US healthcare tech company Merative to lay off around 100 workers in Dublin.

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    Are all major global economies all following the same rate rise regime?

    Post edited by yagan on


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    US inflation expected to rise for the second consecutive month on Wednesday due to rising energy prices in August. You would imagine USD to get stronger with talk about further rate hikes making energy more expensive.

    New data shows oil supply will be tighter as it looks to be heading for a 3 million barrel / day shortfall in Q4 this year


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



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  • Registered Users Posts: 698 ✭✭✭TedBundysDriver




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,397 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...it ll be interesting to see how exposed we are to this, but we all know, this has been brewing for a very long time now, pre covid.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭yagan


    I remember visiting Manchester a few years ago where there's a lot of new skyscappers that were pitched to the Chinese/Hong Kong market. I won't be surprised if there'll be many vertical ghost towers in the years to come.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭brickster69


    US CPI a little more than expected. Puts a bit of pressure on Christine for tomorrow.



    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,901 ✭✭✭amacca


    Yep....almost everything I buy has gone up and gone up significantly and I would buy a broad range of goods and services


    No, the money coming in hasn't gone up though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,551 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    I really have begun to notice my general outgoings have gone up recently (located in Vancouver). And not just in a subtle manner either, some items have gone up 50% or so in price.

    This has all been documented and I, ignorantly, thought to myself "ah it isn't that bad". It really is that bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    Even my crisps.. I see few cents keep being added to the brand of crisps I eat...

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,901 ✭✭✭amacca


    The large bags have rocketed up, the multi buy deals are few and far between too...only saw one back recently, people must have been leaving them on the shelves.


    They will be shrinkflating them next...if they haven't already.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    100% some brands they are skimping in quantity, they reduce the size so pretend they didn't go up much in price.

    Living the life



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