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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Unsurprising when the UK govt didn't account for inflation, no company could break even as a result, hence no bids

    But the abysmal result ensures they are now forced to go fix it and do it right



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    All the talk the last few pages was that the greens were responsible for nothing and that it's FFFG pulling the strings and using the greens as canon fodder. Which is it?

    And it's the IFA we'd have to thank for pushing through solar grants on farms.

    Pity though that the benefit of these panels will be seen in the energy sector when the emission counting is happening and not agriculture.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I honestly chuckled at this, very good, very well done 👏

    On a side note, more on the derogation


    The more I learn of the lackluster efforts of farmers in addressing this, the more I want to see the remaining derogation abolished



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Ya mean by following the advice of governments and the ag advisory bodies?

    These are the actions derogation farmers had to comply with, which many are now rolling out across all non derogation farmers.

    I asked before, what will the removal of derogation mean for nitrates?

    And An Taisce? Headbangers aren't the people to be taking advice from



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An Taisce, nah, it's the EU calling the shots on this due to the endless stream of pollution.

    An Taisce are just putting context around why the EU actions



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Not a wet week ago we were being told by greens that offshore wind prices were only going in one direction down, for any number of flakey reasons. My particular favorite was economy of scale on capital costs, when they were told and shown that a year ago turbine manufacturers were either losing money hand over fist or gone bust.

    Now that it is clear where the cost of offshore is going, and seeing as the already insane capital cost cost of this 30 Gigawatt offshore plan was based on U.K. costs, all the eggs in one basket cost has become even more insane.



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    The important lesson here is that companies have started to doubt the return on their investment in the long term. Doubt and uncertainty are killers and they are increasing. That governments and Green lobby groups are still pushing offshore wind has very limited influence and is diminishing in effect.

    Any company, green or otherwise needs a return on investment. Most of the green tech is coupled w state subsidies. This is mainly good for people like solar panel, heat pump installers etc. They take the money, job done, move on. But a company who signs a (long term) contract crunches the numbers and levels out in- and outputs, weighs the liabilities against profits, all the usual stuff. The bigger the project the higher the liabilities and usually the costs. Some companies might jump in the boat if the state guarantees to cover a large chunk of the costs. There are multiple court cases running dealing w this very issue and now states are getting reluctant to continue to sponsor large green projects. There is an increasing backlash from the people. Politicians other than the Greens are getting nervous. How does that look to a CEO (and shareholders) of a large, even green, company? Pushing the Green Agenda is no longer sufficient to sway them.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/09/08/the-ill-wind-of-offshore-wind-projects/



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The British government priced the offering at an unviable rate. The industry was not about to lose money because the government got it wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    DESNZ priced the offering at a value that they felt the British people could afford. They realised that they don't have a blank cheque to line the pockets of a few select private developers. I'm not sure how that's getting it wrong?

    It's akin to me doing my household budget. I am being urged to get an EV, to retrofit my modest 1920s home, to install solar pv and heat pumps and/or to pay more and more for fuel, carbon and God knows what other green taxes. Yet I only have a limited income and the benefits of these is questionable. What do I do? You guessed it - nothing, because I can't afford to comply with these policies and I'm not taking on significant debt for a policy that could change with the next government, even if it might be good for me long term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    They got it wrong because they set the price to low. They still have to install that capacity and they will go for another round of auctions costing millions in administration. All they had to do was listen to their own advisers who predicted the outcome of this auction. That's called incompetence.

    And resorting to the household budget comparison is as flawed as it always is when rolled out by conservatives. Government's borrow to make strategic investments - they always have and they always will.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    The sensible thing to do for everyone in time of fluctuation and uncertainty is to secure your more solid reliabilities. Hence the current gold rush. Unless you want to gamble with spare money like in stocks and increasingly bonds. Solid as in stuff you can touch. For a while it looked like solar panels and windmills were part of that. The bright Future, a better world, a moral choice. It was part of a wave that has reached its peak.

    You can only fool (or control) people for so long. Just look at what is happening with ESG! Still, the bureaucrats keep piling it up with ever increasing demands for compliance to green rules. But, as we saw earlier, when even the big players get into trouble the once so solid rules will be ignored or watered down. The Greens will ultimately find themselves moping in a wee corner. Then we can all work on a sensible energy transition over time. At the moment the Greens are inwittingly delaying the process. Sometimes i get the feeling they don't really care despite their selfrighteousness. They are longing to be the good guys and girls on a path to glory. A utopian dream turning nightmare..They find it impossible to detach, to uncouple. They are married to an idea which clashes with reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Believe what you like.

    You clearly don't believe in any kind of economic theory. They've done their maths and determined what's a prudent outcome they can work with. Beyond that is fiscal negligence. Competent people don't borrow endlessly, especially departments in a country going through a recession with financial readjustment across the spectrum. Governments, like everyone else, can only borrow within their means. If they are to borrow anything, I hope its to redress the far more urgent needs of their nation - to put food on the table because record numbers are now reliant on food banks in the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    And allowing yourself to fall behind economically through lack of investment can only make the UKs woes greater, since after all lack of investment is the real crisis driving all other crisis in the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Those offshore wind companies are very much the authors of their own misfortune.

    Like greens here they have been telling all and sundry that offshore wind was the only way to go because costs would continue to drop. This arguement now that the costs have risen due to inflation and the war in Ukraine just does not add up. August 2022 winning bids, based on 2012, in the U.K. were £37.50. This August the price offered by the U.K. was £44.00. That is an increase over double the rate of U.K. inflation. The Ukraine arguement doesn`t stack up either. The £37.50 accepted bids were in August 2022, 6 months after Russia invaded. When we see the massive profits these renewable companies have been making, while talking about offshore getting cheaper, then if anything a set price that was increased by over double the inflation rate looks generous.

    What this failed auction has done is burst the bubble on the cost of renewables and offshore especially. Despite what these companies had to say, and despite what greens here had to say on offshore, it has been evident for some time that they were talking rubbish and costs were going through the roof. 2022 end of year results for turbine manufacturer alone showed that. So where does that leave Ireland`s proposed 37 Gigawatt offshore plan and cost ?

    I don`t see how you can somehow see a disconnect from household budgets and the cost of that proposed plan. Who else other than households would be paying for it ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Are you trying to double down on your ignorance of economic theory or just trying to be argumentative?

    I can't spell it out any simpler than DESNZ did a cost benefit analysis. They determined a value that presented the best economic outcome for their requirements. How does that mean you are falling behind economically?

    They can't help it if Industry decided to pass because it didn't align with their goals for profit. I guess there's a lot of better investments than offshore out there.

    The UK have plenty of investment in energy security and are in a damn sight better position than us. They already have a decent gas portfolio, Interconnection, onshore and offshore wind plus are developing nuclear. I don't see them falling behind economically as a result of their energy sector. An ill fated decision to implement Brexit is their main issue. Not some lunacy of throwing excess money they don't have at a niche sector when their economy is shrinking.

    If energy is indeed the sector to focus on if they want to improve their economic outlook (as you suggest), there's more cost effective ways to deliver secure, economic and reliable electricity to meet their energy needs. The have ample gas reserves and interconnectors for one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good to see cargo bikes are becoming more and more popular as a viable alternative to the car for many families




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭prunudo


    They are viable alternative for a minority. That is all. The private car will be the mainstay for many years to come.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,389 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    id have to agree, we really need to get cracking with building a modern rail network, it ll be the only real way of reducing private car usage....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Rail, bus, bike and pedestrian infrastructure is all lacking and needs a significant amount of investment to enable greater modal shifting



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Trust Fitz to clearly illustrate why the EU had to force Ireland to drop the derogation




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    I look forward to the press release from both the wind and solar industry explaining why they failed simultaneously under normal weather conditions. I won't be holding my breath.


    DATE & TIME   FORECAST WIND(MW)    ACTUAL WIND(MW)   REGION
    10/09/2023 00:00   34   -1   All Island
    10/09/2023 00:15   34   -2   All Island
    10/09/2023 00:30   33   1   All Island
    10/09/2023 00:45   32   2   All Island
    10/09/2023 01:00   33   4   All Island
    10/09/2023 01:15   32   2   All Island
    10/09/2023 01:30   32   0   All Island
    10/09/2023 01:45   32   1   All Island
    10/09/2023 02:00   32   5   All Island
    10/09/2023 02:15   31   2   All Island
    10/09/2023 02:30   31   -2   All Island
    10/09/2023 02:45   31   -3   All Island
    10/09/2023 03:00   31   -3   All Island
    10/09/2023 03:15   31   -5   All Island
    10/09/2023 03:30   31   -1   All Island
    10/09/2023 03:45   31   0   All Island
    10/09/2023 04:00   32   5   All Island
    10/09/2023 04:15   33   6   All Island
    10/09/2023 04:30   34   5   All Island
    10/09/2023 04:45   35   6   All Island
    10/09/2023 05:00   36   4   All Island
    10/09/2023 05:15   36   8   All Island
    10/09/2023 05:30   36   10   All Island
    10/09/2023 05:45   37   9   All Island
    10/09/2023 06:00   37   16   All Island
    10/09/2023 06:15   36   18   All Island
    10/09/2023 06:30   35   17   All Island
    10/09/2023 06:45   34   23   All Island
    


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Good old Moneypoint has been chugging away all weekend and keeping the lights on in the absence of the wind and solar. There'll be no press releases on that either. It'll be a sad day when they inevitably close, having been so dependable for so long.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    If you believe that abysmal result of nobody bidding for U.K. offshore because the U.K. didn`t factor in inflation then they have bigger problems heading their way.

    Last years winning bids were based on 2012 prices were £37.50. The maximum bid allowed this year was £44.00, 17% higher than last years winning bids. The present U.K. rate of inflation is 6.8%.

    If nobody bid for a price that was over 10% higher than last year after taking inflaton into account because they say they would be losing money doing so, where does that leave the 7 Gigawatts of offshore sold last year ?

    Far as I can see there are only two possibilities. Either the companies are lying on the present price losing them money believing they have the U.K. government over a barrel and are attmpting to gough them for more money, or they are telling the truth. If they are telling the truth then nobody is going to be building that 7 Gigawatts from last years auction.

    So which is it, are those offshore companies telling the truth or not ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Excellent analysis on the UK auction situation, should answer a lot of questions for some




  • Registered Users Posts: 698 ✭✭✭TedBundysDriver




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I doubt it will have that effect on the renewables skeptics, but the analysis that offshore wind is the cheaper source of electricity Vs gas is telling.

    The business as usual fanboys fail to mention that gas prices are 100% higher than pre war prices and predicted to stay that way indefinitely.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I note that you seem to have an issue when I post about other locations, but not other posters.

    By all means you can try draw the line on only content relevant to Ireland in this thread, no issue with that, however many other posters may have a problem with it as they use a lot of other countries in their whataboutery. They may run out of stuff to counter with if such a restriction is put in place. Just an fyi

    Up to you, I have no issue either way

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All true but wait for someone to post a chart making it look like the price has returned to normal because the spikes have distorted it so much



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog




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