School resignations and recruitment problems, 2023-2024

gaiscioch · 25-05-2023 9:11am #1

So far, it seems about 15% of the established, permanent teachers in my school will not be coming back in September to my Dublin school. The refusal of the school to grant a career break, and promotions to elsewhere in the education system were factors. Additionally, abuse of social media is increasingly an issue in teachers leaving teaching entirely as it's not a safe working environment (specifically, secret recordings made by students in class and posted online). I expect the 15% will increase by September as people currently on career break will have until the end of August to decide if they're coming back.

For the younger teachers, accommodation costs are hemorrhaging the future. They're just leaving Dublin even though in most cases the school would like them to stay. These are teachers who will lose an extra €7,000 or so per annum for extracurricular work that they wouldn't get in most schools, but that's a pittance given the money they'd save on accommodation by moving outside Dublin. I don't think any sort of London-style top-up payment for teachers in Dublin (and I am one) is going to stop this exodus from Dublin schools to cheaper parts of Ireland.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/flood-of-teachers-leaving-for-other-jobs-because-they-simply-cannot-afford-a-home/42430311.html

What's the situation in your school in terms of vacancies and resignations/retirements?

Treppen · 25-05-2023 6:50pm

We're not hit too bad as there's only 2 leaving due to cost of living.. although I just remembered there were 2 gone abroad a couple of years ago on career break to UAE but there's no sign of them returning yet. I know a primary school in West Dublin who are losing 1/3 of the staff to career break + teachers who were denied career break but leaving anyway. Eldest teacher in the school apart from principal is in their late 20s.

At this stage I think it's just a childcare issue, they'll get some subs of some unqualified description in for crowd control and that'll be Norma's big solution. Feic all will be taught.

Random sample · 26-05-2023 4:39pm

We are at the other end of this. Most new hires are experienced teachers moving from dublin, rather than young new teachers. This is a new situation for us since covid, it will be interesting to see how the next few years pan out. We will have teachers who have given years to the school competing for posts with experienced teachers who are new to the school.

Treppen · 27-05-2023 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643817#Comment_120643817

You can see why very little will be done. Dublin's loss is others gain.

Although I doubt parents who gain new teachers coming from Dublin will bat an eyelid. Parents don't seem to worry so much as long as they have somewhere to put the kids during the day time.

Str8outtaWuhan · 27-05-2023 1:20pm

Can Dublin based teachers on career break get jobs as teachers down the country?

amacca · 27-05-2023 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646811#Comment_120646811

I don't think so...

History Queen · 31-05-2023 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646811#Comment_120646811

As casual subs yes, (that has been allowed for the last two years I yhink, but wasn't allowed previously)but not on contracted hours, unless said contracted hours are privately paid.

gaiscioch · 10-06-2023 2:17pm

Breda O Brien, for all the abuse she gets, is on the money with this morning's Irish Times article: 'Teachers are approaching burnout. Another half-baked educational reform will break them':

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/06/10/teachers-are-approaching-burnout-another-half-baked-educational-reform-will-break-them/

It would be really interesting to get the stats on school resignations and early retirements for this year, and how they compare to previous years. Watching people with 20-25 years teaching experience, and solid reputations among students, leave the staff and go into other areas of the public sector despite having at least 10 years left as a teacher is instructive. And this would not be a deprived school, where teachers endure substantially more challenges on their mental health and energy levels (and financial inequity due to the absence of school-paid posts). These people had the 'dream job' of their newly qualified selves in their early 20s, and then give it up. Not a single career break was granted in our school this summer, and this precipitated these resignations of genuinely popular, consummate professionals on the staff.

As for younger staff being able to afford accommodation in Dublin, good luck with that! This government is away with the fairies in its refusal to get serious about the housing shortage.

dory · 11-06-2023 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643817#Comment_120643817

We're the same. Has been like that for 5-6 years and has really changed the dynamic.

I'm also hearing about career breaks being denied and those teachers just quitting instead. Life's too short.

Grueller · 11-06-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120700236#Comment_120700236

I left teaching for a period for that reason. Job share denied so I resigned my position. I went back to it in a different school after a year out.

Random sample · 11-06-2023 6:37pm

It’s so short sighted not allowing leave.

My principal is of the opinion, and is open about it, that anyone who asks for leave does so for their own valid reason and should be accommodated.

iniscealtra · 11-06-2023 7:27pm

In the West so all positions are full. Career breaks and job shares are given. Difficult to get a teaching position thats not a foxed term in this area. Staff are now looking for job shares due to burnout with new measures introduced over the last few years. That’s new. Only position not certain they can fill on job share is Home Econonics.

I think they only allow leave if they get someone to fill the position ? Is that the policy?

deiseindublin · 14-06-2023 11:15pm

Were I in management I'd be asking myself "Would I prefer half a Home Ec teacher, or no Home Ec teacher?"

deiseindublin · 14-06-2023 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646811#Comment_120646811

Most likely they will resign their position to take up new contract, or sub X amount for the year casually. This was relaxed to allow more days the last while, but it's still a year at a time that's being decided.

iniscealtra · 15-06-2023 8:42am

The thing is that you’d get more applications for the position if the Home Ec teacher did quit as it would be Full hours and a contract that could lead to a CID.

gaiscioch · 22-06-2023 12:27pm

I think most of us have been right here with the 'Is this a real job?' question in yesterday's Irish Tines:

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/06/21/is-this-a-real-job-for-teachers-sending-in-a-cv-can-feel-like-a-roll-of-the-dice/

Alex86Eire · 22-06-2023 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120748586#Comment_120748586

I (unknowingly) took a job from a candidate that was reinterviewing and was basically told she had the job so you never know!

gaiscioch · 23-08-2023 3:08pm

This morning's paper: 416 unfilled post-primary positions the week before schools reopen:

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/08/23/hundreds-of-teaching-posts-unfilled-a-week-before-schools-reopen/

noplacehere · 23-08-2023 3:24pm

Our school had an unqualified "teacher" in maths last year. Team teaching... essentially I had an extra student in the room to mind. They are apparently back again in September. Still unqualified. I was also told that they had a teacher in for me while I was out last year, I was delighted. Yup, nope-it was a new graduate from an arts degree. No teaching degree/PME and had never stood in a classroom before. Essentially my class was babysat

I know of someone who was trying to avail of Carers leave. They were told they had to resign their position entirely and sub instead and the circular apparently specifically prevents them from teaching their own classes. So they'd have to be down the corridor covering another teacher while no qualified teacher can be found for their room... Last I heard they gave up and took a career break to care for their daughter instead because it was so much hassle and paperwork. Thats an outrageous situation

mtoutlemonde · 23-08-2023 5:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017032#Comment_121017032

I wonder how many are 22 RPT contracts - very few I'd say they are small hours and people would be better off subbing for the day instead of being timetabled first and last, spending the day in the staffroom.

mtoutlemonde · 23-08-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017111#Comment_121017111

I totally agree, I work in a school where you would have enough content for three bestsellers if not more. It's shocking what school management get away with.

noplacehere · 23-08-2023 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017809#Comment_121017809

We are down three full time staff apparently. Not sure what the contract types are but they are full hours. Commuter belt so staff get the jobs in june and then get a job further west at this stage of the year. To be fair to management, staffing is a nightmare and I would hate to be timetabling. No matter how organised they are it always changes which I think has led to the get a "body in the room" rather than get "a good teacher in the room"

gaiscioch · 24-08-2023 11:50am

I just found out today that another few teachers in our school will not be coming back for the coming school year. It seems that over the summer they got new jobs nearer to their homes in rural Ireland in all cases. In all cases they have young kids, or are about to have them. This is on top of all the teachers who gave notice before the summer. Some really good, focused and very professional (a hugely underrated quality in the workplace) teachers have been lost this year overwhelmingly, if not entirely, due to the cost of housing in Dublin.

Bobtheman · 29-08-2023 5:59pm

The government won't do anything. They have allowed waiting lists to explode and children to go homeless.

Kids not being educated. No big deal

Str8outtaWuhan · 29-08-2023 6:08pm

Not a teacher but my son's first day in 2nd yr consisted of 5 (1 hr classes) of which the school didn't have teachers to teach 3 of them 🤣 he said they were told the school haven't found teachers yet .

Bobtheman · 29-08-2023 8:51pm

A simple solution would be a Dublin allowance time limited for say 4 years but I just can't see it happening because they'd have to offer to nurses etc

I think they hope that demographics will sort it out.

Evidence for this is the way the teaching council discourages people to return to Ireland.

The department of education hate committing to long term commitments which teachers are.

We are governed by idiots who are trying to avoid the last crisis while creating a new crisis. We don't need to worry about a sudden collapse in finance like 2008. That's last crisis

The states population is bulging. We need to pump huge money into public services but they won't do that because the two guys in finance lack any imagination

This is the new crisis even worse public services. If that was possible.

The government simply hopes to be re- elected because you fear SF oh and because the economy is doing well

Dickie10 · 04-09-2023 11:56pm

Is just casual subbing in greater dublin commuter belt a sustainable way to make a few quid? is there much demand for literally supervising classes? are there many doing it? thinking of doing it this year.

Peter Flynt · 05-09-2023 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044260#Comment_121044260

There’s never going to be a Dublin allowance because the unions would oppose it and the politicians are more than happy to go along with that. Besides such an allowance would have to be as high as €20000 due to the insanity of the housing market in Dublin. Providing a few grand and calling it a Dublin allowance wouldn’t last very long in Dublin. It might pay for rent for a couple of months but that’s it.

spurious · 05-09-2023 12:23am

If only teachers had warned people about exactly this.

am_zarathustra · 05-09-2023 9:27am

I'd have said 5 years ago a dublin allowance was impossible but people who would have been vehemently against are coming around. We haven't even seen the full spike of population into secondary and schools are seriously struggling. Extra paid subbing hours will eventually just lead to burnout, again a short term solution.

The one year dip would also make a difference, but its a cheap moneymaker for universities so its hard to see them wanting to reform.

But 100%, it was all so predictable, count the students, could the teachers and divide the former into the latter. It's not rocket science.

2011abc · 06-09-2023 5:08pm

Two year Dip is a joke and has now come home to roost

rainbowtrout · 06-09-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121070328#Comment_121070328

I don't know if teachers on the ground would oppose it. I can only speak for myself, but I live in the west of Ireland and I'd have no objections to a teacher in Dublin getting an allowance. I know how expensive it is to live there and housing costs are insane.

Sometimes unions can be out of step with what is happening on the ground. Just from talking to other teachers in my staffroom, none of them would want to teach in Dublin because of the cost and we have a few Dubs on staff, one who specifically said she came west due to the cost of living and wouldn't go back.

It would be fairly easy to implement - if a teacher is employed in a school in Dublin then the allowance is added to their pay by payroll in the relevant ETB or Dept of Ed, because if they are working in a Dublin school they are either living in Dublin or commuting into Dublin so either way it's expensive.

I'm sure there would be some argument along the way about teachers who work in Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow etc, but it's not unrealistic to focus on the most expensive county in the country.

Peter Flynt · 07-09-2023 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078176#Comment_121078176

Your generosity of spirit towards your colleagues in Dublin and surrounding counties would not be the norm amongst teaching colleagues in counties further west due to good old fashioned Irish begrudgery which is quite remarkable as over 60% of the revenue of the state is generated in Dublin. It's also interesting that none of your colleagues would like to work in Dublin. . . I wonder how many would agree with your stance that a Dublin allowance should be allowed.

gaiscioch · 08-09-2023 8:24am

Looking at educationposts.ie over the course of a period of time is very interesting. Posts are being readertised for even the top fee-charging schools in the State (i.e. where all teachers will get school-paid positions, very often a number of them together in the current shortage of school staff, on top of their ordinary salary) at this late date. Are people starting, and leaving very quickly? Or are people just not taking the jobs if the job is in Dublin?

Intertestingly, some of those schools are saying 'An allowance for relocation and recruitment may be available.... Assistance will be given in finding accommodation if required.' If such schools are having difficulty recruiting, how hard must it be for principals in schools without those financial incentives. What's going on in teacher employment in DEIS schools at the moment?

This morning on educationposts.ie, there are 296 jobs available in post-primary schools in all 26 counties. 125 of those jobs, or 42% of them, are in Dublin (28.5% of the total population was estimated to be in Dublin in 2021: https://tinyurl.com/2hxeck6a):

https://educationposts.ie/posts/second_level?sb=application_closing_date&sd=0&p=1&cy=27&pd=&vc=&ptl=

rainbowtrout · 08-09-2023 12:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083638#Comment_121083638

Some people just can't afford to move to Dublin/can't get accommodation so are happy to take a job elsewhere that is more available I'd guess. I don't see accommodation issues easing in Dublin anytime soon, so it's not going to get better for Dublin schools in the short term.

am_zarathustra · 08-09-2023 4:37pm

It'll show up the disfunctional schools in the urban areas too, if you were looking to jump ship it would be a great time. With the right subjects you could be permanent out the gate.

rainbowtrout · 08-09-2023 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086088#Comment_121086088

Except that schools are an essential service and every county has them, so teachers that can't afford to live in Dublin will move to more affordable parts of the country or abroad. That impacts on students attending schools in Dublin where teaching positions are not filled and students are sitting without a teacher, in some cases for multiple subjects. I live in what would be considered to be a disadvantaged town in the west and houses are being snapped up here. Plenty moved down from Dublin from 2020 onwards, easy to sell up in Dublin, clear the mortgage and buy a similar or bigger house down here for cash with what is leftover.

rainbowtrout · 08-09-2023 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086781#Comment_121086781

Don't know why you are taking that attitude, ultimately teachers will find more affordable places to live, but students in some areas will not have teachers, or will not have qualified teachers. That's where the impact will be.

rainbowtrout · 08-09-2023 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121086859#Comment_121086859

If a school can't fill the position with a qualified teacher, then they may be forced to hire someone who is not a qualified teacher, not a difficult concept

amacca · 08-09-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121079169#Comment_121079169

Wouldn't a dublin allowance have to be very high to rncourage enough people to teach there?

What's the point of a couple of grand when you are looking at huge rents for shoeboxes etc

amacca · 08-09-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087018#Comment_121087018

Well it's that or kids go home

Which do you think most parents would choose....for some it's just a childminding service remember...that's the level you are at with some people and they ain't the worst by any means.

Does that shock you too?😇

amacca · 08-09-2023 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087774#Comment_121087774

Any school I've been in they generally do the best they can to get someone that's qualified, or has a degree 8n relevant area...

It wasn't very common in recent times for an untrained/unqualified person to be in front of a class.....but there is a shortage in some areas, simple as that. Managements can't magic up qualified people if they aren't there....they can try smalgame classes, ask retired teachers to help out take certain classes etc etc if they have to but ultimately there's a mismatch in certain areas and one can only paper over the cracks so much.....

Everyone thinks the problems are the teachers faults....its almost as if they don't realise they have bosses too and that the teachers are just cogs in the system...

Treppen · 10-09-2023 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121087829#Comment_121087829

True that, Ive heard pat Kenny on numerous occasions playing the blame game saying that career brake should be halted. Guy hasn't got a clue, I know a school in Dublin where 10 teachers resigned as they weren't granted career break, simple, they voted with their feet and left Dublin for the schticks or UAE for the money. They ain't coming back Pat.

Dublin allowance just won't cut it.Name an amount that would encourage a teacher to stay in Dublin? I say €12,000 p/a. No way that's going to fly with the department.

Although overnight 14 new TDs were created, no debate about cost. So there you go

Peter Flynt · 10-09-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091279#Comment_121091279

Pat Kenny is a vile person. His hatred for teachers is so blatant and obvious that there no attempt at objectivity.

Peter Flynt · 10-09-2023 1:29pm

On a separate issue I wonder if there is a legal issue there against the Minister/State if children are being denied SEN assistance that cannot be provided due to a lack of teachers?

hamburgham · 10-09-2023 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091279#Comment_121091279

Does that not mean that permanent positions are now available to others instead? One way or the other, there were going to be vacancies to fill and is it not better that they are permanent positions rather than short term, temporary positions?

I agree that career breaks should be stopped. It distorts the market. If you don’t want the job, resign and let someone who does want it have it.

Peter Flynt · 10-09-2023 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092434#Comment_121092434

Career breaks are the norm in a wide variety of careers. Why should the terms and conditions of employment of teachers be made worse because the government won't pay teachers properly?

hamburgham · 10-09-2023 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092540#Comment_121092540

They are not the norm at all. In what other sector does this happen?

amacca · 10-09-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092306#Comment_121092306

I've often felt that when listrning to him and wondered why

I mean for a guy who was on 900k per annum at one point it just seems odd.

Peter Flynt · 10-09-2023 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121092968#Comment_121092968

They are the norm.

Peter Flynt · 10-09-2023 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121093098#Comment_121093098

It's very strange. Kenny's hatred for teachers is visceral and clearly unhinged and yet someone told me his wife was a teacher (which I find difficult to believe given Kenny's salary).

School resignations and recruitment problems, 2023-2024

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