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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Concerns over the next auction. Looks like the slow planning system is having a chilling effect on interest




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Germany the poster child for unreliable electricity generation (Energiewende) now finds itself depending on nuclear from France and coal from Poland to keep the lights on.

    In the first half of 2023, we generated 233.9 billion kilowatt hours of electricity in Germany and fed it into our networks. It sounds like a lot, but it's not at all: In fact, it's 11.4% less than in the first half of 2022.


    Not surprisingly, we also exported almost a fifth less electricity in the first six months of this year (-18.1%). Our electricity imports, on the other hand, have exploded by almost a third (+ 30.8%).


    In the second quarter of this year - i.e. in the months from April to June 2023 - the last three nuclear power plants in operation delivered almost no electricity to us, they were shut down on April 15th. During this time, we imported 18.5 billion kWh, significantly more electricity than was exported (11.4 billion kWh). source



    Perhaps this is what the Greens mean by 'active transport', we will eventually be running on hamster wheels to charge the grid.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭prunudo


    The government have been warned for a long time that delays to planning will effect investment across all industries. They just don't listen. ABp and local planning departments need much more resources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The country is effectively a unitary authority out of Dublin. All local authorities are starved of resources.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To be fair the new planning legislation is designed to fix a lot of issues with the system but there are problems

    1. They are looking to limit access to appeals/courts and so the legislation (or portions of it) will end up being struck down by either the Supreme court or the EU. The EU have already warned the govt to expect a legal challenge if they plough ahead. If that happens it will just lead to further slowdown as confusion will reign

    2. Resources or the lack thereof remains the biggest constraint. You can have the most streamlined process in the world but if you don't have the headcount to keep the wheels turning.....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    It's not cheaper and it's not reliable. 99.9% availability means 8 hours of outage per year. The capacity factor on Wind and Solar is very low, most of the year they are producing very little. How many turbines do we have now? Here is the total failure of wind turbine output under normal weather conditions. The turbines even consumed power, presumably from gas and coal generation. Irish electricity consumers are now caught between a rock and a hard place and this is going to become much worse and reflected in the prices. Ireland has no gas storage, has blocked all exploration and is dependent on external suppliers for its gas, to guarantee supply Irish gas generators must pay a premium. Unless there is excess supply in the system or cheap finance, Irish gas suppliers have no leverage. Their only reserves are whatever can be packed into the Moffat line.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    There are no viable Irish gas supplies - none. The government has been trying to sell rights to gas exploration for literally decades at this stage. We will always be dependent on imports of gas - a very risky place to be in the current climate.

    Corrib was the only successful gas facility developed and they had to practically give it away to get shell to develop it. Corrib is all but spent after little over a decade of production and vast cost overruns. The price of gas has increased and will increase as all the easy strikes have been exploited. Fracking has vastly higher costs than conventional gas and the ponzy scheme that is the fracking industry is the only reason gas prices have been held somewhat down - however each year Fracked gas will rise in cost as new wells are sunk and old well refracted at ever demonising returns.

    You would have to be an absolute fool to invest in a stranded industry such as gas and those who did invest in Fracking have had almost no returns on investment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Shell got burned on the Corrib field and exited at a loss. The low density and low capacity factor of solar and wind ensures the Irish grid will remain dependent on imported gas for decades to come and our states current policies of increasing electricity demand while putting more unreliable generation and extension leads in while increasing the cost of reliable generation can only result in situation where the price to maintain reliable generation and transmission rise exponentially.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭prunudo


    our states current policies of increasing electricity demand while putting more unreliable generation and extension leads in while increasing the cost of reliable generation


    Its amazing this point continually gets glossed over in the drive for utopian reliance on green energy. There seems to be a drive for unachievable goals at any cost while ignoring the glaringly obvious, we need massive infrastructure investment, that takes time. There's a serious case of cutting off out noses to spite our face with current policies.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There were news reports a while back about the state of Lough Neagh, this sat image shows just how bad it truly is. Paints a pretty clear picture as to what happens when you allow unrestricted agri pollution




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    we need massive infrastructure investment, that takes time

    Are you referring to the 2050 date?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    So if we want any form of energy independence where do we go then 1) small scale nuclear 2) drastically cut back on electricity consumption across state, residential and business users.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭prunudo


    At least 2050 is 26 years away. I'm more concerned by the believe we can do so much in 6 years to get to the 2030 goals that continually get mentioned.

    As per my previous post. Planning and red-tape is a nightmare in this country and is turning investors away, not just green projects either. 2030 is no time away when it comes to planning and implementing projects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The state has made it it's policy to expand data centres to 2x domestic supply whilst not having a policy as to where that extra electricity will come from. That is a crucial and ignored issue here as it makes renewables roll out a shifting goalpost situation with unrealistic targets.

    Stopping new data centres would go a long way to addressing future electricity needs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    There is no such things as commercial small nuclear. It's a proof of concept project which cannot address our needs in the available window of opportunity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Then you are conceding that we cannot be energy independent. At best we can use natural wind resources (which hopefully won't change) offshore and some onshore to generate and trade with other states via inter connectors. Other states that have nuclear power stations.

    So with this strategy, we will always be over a barrel and dependent on others. And of course using nuclear indirectly. And subject to changes in climate and conditions that may damage this infrastructure on one hand or becalm it in others.

    Not a great scenario.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree the 2030 target is tight due to planning issues but just because something is difficult does not mean it shouldn't be done.

    Its recognised that the planning is in trouble. Some of the actions to address it are being half-assed though so we'll have to wait and see how effective they are

    • new planning court incl new judges (doubtful there will be enough judges appointed)
    • ABP to be staffed up properly (I'm doubtful this will be done 100%)
    • planning legislation being cleaned up (major issues with how this is being done though)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Its more than tight, it won't be achieved, especially given the current immigration policy with an ever increasing population.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    If our targets are met we will be net exporters of electricity for much of the time. That means net earners.

    The EU has been planning for and building out the solutions to your concerns.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Data centres dwarf any immigration issues. Your looking in the wrong direction.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,398 ✭✭✭prunudo


    The 2 go hand in hand, more poeple, more cat videos that must be stored on the cloud.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Ireland is setting itself up as the data centre capitol of the world not just the Irish - with no realistic plan of how to provide the power or even the significant cooling infrastructure.

    What seems to be happening is that many of the data centre companies are building their own private gas power stations which totally undermines the governments official policy

    Take it from me immigration is a drop in the bucket.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Meanwhile the Murdock media is shilling for big oil with a coordinated global attack on EV ownership.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Yer forgetting that big projects like that aren't just allowed build willy nilly. They have to show how they will power the place, plus have agreement with providers to provide them with power. Otherwise, no planning granted



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Much of what is been built as renewables is been snapped up by data centres as supply contract - removing it from grid availability. Also they are been allowed to use gas power. But indeed many have been put on hold recently because of lack of capacity. The government is still out toughting for data centre business



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    This misinformation really needs to be tackled head on. Every single data centre takes years of planning alone and that's before you even get to connection agreements with the grid. Every single data centre has been on the utility providers radar for at least 4/5 years before approval is granted.

    What is this mythical cooling infrastructure you speak of?

    Here's another piece of information that you clearly didn't know. Those gas plants that were built by data centres are doing so AT the direction of the planning authorities and was a direction from the government.

    So tell me, what do you think puts a greater strain on a countries economic and energy sectors. Is it a tightly controlled, well regulated Industry that takes years of planning before a single shovel breaks ground or an open border policy with no controls in place?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    It is more than likely the pollution of lough Neagh is from domestic septic tanks. Lots of luxury houses built in that area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You actually think data centres are removing renewables from being available to the grid 🤣

    They are part of the grid, not some seperate entity.

    And one side of the government still understands that economic growth is important in a developed country that relies heavily on the services sector. Yet, another branch of the government is banning new gas connections to allow plants be self sufficient, all in the name of NetZero (a completely bankrupt idea by the way).

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Actually it doesn`t answer any of the questions.

    Your point was that nobody bid for offshore because the U.K. did not adjust the maximum quote to allow for inflation, they did. The price they qouted was 17% higher than successful bids 12 months previously and U.K. inflation is 6.8%. These offshore companies say they would lose money with a price that is 10% higher than last year even after allowing for inflation, so where does that leave the 7 Gigawatts sold last year?

    If these companies are telling the truth, then last years successful bidders going ahead on the basis of last years price would be operating at a loss, so that is not going to happen. So what is it you want the U.K. do do. Just give these companies the 40% increase in price they want ? Do that and they are just being held to ransom by these companies.

    It`s a bit of an idiotic analysis anyway (and the usual greens comparing apples to oranges) with a headline of "U.K. renewables still cheaper than gas despite auction setback for offshore wind" when these companies are looking for an increase of 40% on the current price for wind.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog




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