Permanent food market

tom1ie · 14-09-2023 12:27pm #1

Hi all,

sitting here in Kilkenny on my lunch break in the shadow of KK castle after eating a vegetable curry for €6 from a stall and getting a coffee for €3:20 from a stall- I’m wondering is there a permanent food market that does sandwiches, crepes, tacos, Indian food stalls in Dublin CC?

It would be a great attraction and bring a lot of people into the CC I think? (As long as it’s a decent price)

What do ya reckon?

Gloomtastic! · 14-09-2023 12:33pm

They're trying to do something like that on Moore Street.

gipi · 14-09-2023 12:37pm

Isn't that the suggestion for the Iveagh market on the southside and the Fruit and Flower market at Smithfield ?

tom1ie · 14-09-2023 12:48pm

Honestly I’m not sure I just thought something like that is badly missing on Dublin or else I didn’t know about it!

I must take a look at the plans and see if there will be proper facilities like public paid for use toilets like they have in KK.

The setting for the market is pretty important too.

The Nal · 18-09-2023 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108815#Comment_121108815

Yes. And an absolute disgrace we don't have one.

State of this.

petros1980 · 19-09-2023 11:38am

They've been talking about opening such a market in Dublin for more than 20 years. No idea why it hasn't happened...

London is full of such places as are many regional English towns.

Here in Warsaw at the moment there are multiple such markets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala_Koszyki

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Mirowskie_w_Warszawie

Most major European cities have similar.

Just seems as with many things, that in Ireland its just more difficult to get things done...

GBX · 19-09-2023 11:40am

Other than random shops dotted around the place there hasn't been a place like that since the Epicurean Market on Abbey Street/Liffey Street. Where Dealz is now. Shame really

artanevilla · 19-09-2023 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129529#Comment_121129529

Yeah that was a good one, not many people seemed to know about it and had a major addict problem towards the end. There's a couple of smaller ones around such as Eatyard at the Bernard Shaw in Phibs.

The Nal · 19-09-2023 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129535#Comment_121129535

North Lotts, its even worse now. No go zone.

tom1ie · 19-09-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126257#Comment_121126257

Wasn’t there some sort of legal challenge by the owners about this or something?

I thought it was all sorted and work had started turning it into a market but obviously not.

BlueSkyDreams · 20-09-2023 12:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108799#Comment_121108799

Moore street is just the same old cheap tat living off a reputation.

its like a poor english town market.

There wont ever be anything decent there again and DCC should just accept it and allow a proper redevelopment of the area.

DCC try everything possible to keep that market open and its a dirty, run down embarrasment of a place.

Iveagh markets is locked in legal battles, sadly.

The best potential for a city food market is St Andrews Church, which I believe Michael Wright is close to signing a deal with.

Another seperate venture is the Google HQ in Grand Canal Docks.

There should be a decent food market at Google by next summer.

Smithfield Fruit and Veg market should also be turned into an artisan food market, as per the DCC plans. But as usual, DCC takes forever to do anything so I believe we are still a year or 3 away from it happening.

Shambles really, but my money is on Google to deliver first.

There are also plans for a food market at CHQ, but DCC will likley scupper that. As they do with almost every creative idea the city imagines.

Ezeoul · 20-09-2023 1:34am

Prior to the pandemic there used to be a kind of food market on the canal at Mespil Road every thursday, does that not happen anymore?

(I don't work in the area any longer).

tom1ie · 20-09-2023 6:32am

The closest thing to the market that I was at in Kilkenny, that I’ve seen in Dublin was in Dun Laoghaire in the people’s park. But that’s Sundays only from 10am-4pm. (I tried posting a link but boards won’t allow it).

SDCC and DCC should have something like this but a permanent 7 day a week job.

Caranica · 20-09-2023 6:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132396#Comment_121132396

Still there, and in merrion square park on a Thursday too

Brian? · 20-09-2023 6:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129529#Comment_121129529

I was going to say that. The Epicurean food hall was brilliant, but it just didn’t do enough business. Seems people really want packets of biscuits for €2, not really good Turkish food.

20-09-2023 6:41am

CHQ Building is another potential

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/03/06/plan-submitted-to-turn-chq-building-into-multi-stall-food-market/

Peregrinus · 20-09-2023 6:57am

I think we need to be clear about what we are talking about.

The OP is talking about a permanent food market in which you buy prepared food which you can consume on the spot — something like a food court, only it's not in a shopping centre.

But the talk fairly quickly gravitates to food markets on the European model, where you mostly buy produce and grocery items that you take home. These markets can be further divided into those in which ordinary staple produce is sold cheaply, and those in which fancier, more processed, often artisanal produce is sold, usually not cheaply. A lot of markets cover both, mostly in separate sections. These markets may also sell ready-to-eat prepared food, coffee, etc, but that's usually a pretty small end of the overall business.

In Ireland, markets selling ordinary produce would be competing directly with supermarkets. The fresh grocery trade in Ireland is overwhelmingly dominated by a small number of supermarket chains who, whatever else you may think about them, are very efficient and very competitive in price. Plus, supermarkets are conveniently located. Food markets in Europe tend to do well in a different environment where people shop a lot more at small local groceries, and where the buy relatively more of their produce in small, frequent shopping trips and relatively less in big, once-a-week shopping trips. I suspect a fresh produce food market would not be competitive in Ireland, given our shopping habits and the domination of the trade by supermarkets.

An upscale artisanal produce market might do well if it was located in the right spot. (The Iveagh Markets is definitely not that spot.)

It's telling that the Smithfield market, which was more of a basic produce market, closed with a plan to replace it with a more specialty market, but that project does not seem to be proceeding at pace (or at all?). To succeed, it not only needs to attract a critical mass of customers, but also a critical mass of merchants; you need lots of different artisanal producers who will make the commitment of renting space there to sell their produce.

magicbastarder · 20-09-2023 7:06am

I suspect the demographics of the surrounding area plays a part too. The Smithfield food market is not in an area which would traditionally be thought of as high income, and that would affect the balance and viability of who might shop there.

Though it'd be interesting to know just how many people live within 500m of each site, say, which would be a reasonable 5 to 10 minute walk.

tom1ie · 20-09-2023 7:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132552#Comment_121132552

Yeah tbh I was thinking a larger version of what I came across in KK which sold ready to eat Indian, Persian, spicy tacos, ice cream, crepes, etc etc.

You could also get baked goods, coffee, vegan, vegetarian.

There were also a few art stalls.

There was also busking in the area which added to the ambience.

This was outside the grounds of KK. castle so a great setting for it.

Peregrinus · 20-09-2023 8:21am

Yeah. That's another kind of market again — basically a craft market, with eating and drinking facilities. People mainly go to this kind of market for the experience of being there, rather than because they want to buy stuff to bring home.

There's nothing wrong with this kind of market — they're great — but they are a far cry from the big European food markets where people go to buy cabbages or apples or olives or housewares or whatever.

The Nal · 20-09-2023 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132552#Comment_121132552

Dunno. I think the The Iveagh Markets is definitely that spot. Right by Patricks and Christchurch, the Dublinia craic etc. Loads of tourists which make up a huge amount of trade from the European style markets.

tom1ie · 20-09-2023 8:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132755#Comment_121132755

Well I imagine if it’s in the correct spot these sort of craft places would do alright.

The food places certainly would.

FWIW I think somewhere near Christchurch or Patrick’s cathedral would be excellent. Throw in a bit of live music and it’s a winner.

Peregrinus · 20-09-2023 8:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132760#Comment_121132760

I don't think it's right for the artisanal produce market - tourists don't come to Ireland to buy Irish cheeses and specialty breads. But it might be a good spot for an Irish crafts market.

The European food markets attract tourists, but they sell mostly to locals. Tourists will mostly buy small, non-perishable produce that is distinctive of the country which they can bring home as gifts or souvenirs.

AlanG · 20-09-2023 8:46am

There was a good piece on Prime time last week about this very topic. A clip is below.

DCC are such a mess that Lord iveagh had to repossess the Iveagh market based on a 100 year old clause. he wanted to give it abck to DCC for free but they messed him around. He rightly got pissed off paying for security and being messed around that he handed them back the keys and pretty much washed his hands of it.

https://www.rte.ie/video/id/7558/

The Nal · 20-09-2023 8:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132812#Comment_121132812

Thats 50% of those food markets though. Small, non-perishable produce. Go to La Boqueria in Barcelona and its paprika, saffron, jamon. Campo Di Fiore in Rome is cheese and dried herbs for pasta, Central Market in Budapest is Hungarian paprika, sausages, goulash seasoning, French market in New Orelans is hot sauces, cajun seasoning and the like.

And yeah lots of nice fresh fish and produce for locals too. That entire area of Dublin is being transformed ("gentrified") anyway so why not add a market.

Looks like it would be cheaper to knock it down and start from scratch though.

Citizen Six · 20-09-2023 8:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131019#Comment_121131019

Nah, it's constantly back and forth. Lots of meetings behind closed doors about it as well, that the councillors are keeping quiet.

It's a minimum of 15 years away at this stage. The "owner" has deliberately let the building fall into it's current state of disrepair.

magicbastarder · 20-09-2023 9:13am

regarding the sort of fresh fruit markets some have mentioned; to my eyes, it's fairly simple. pick smithfield - and someone living nearby. if they want tomatoes, will they go to the market, or will they go to the lidl in smithfield?

there's also a lidl on parnell street and one on talbot street. for the north inner city, there's not a lot of people who would choose to pay more in an artisanal food market than they would in lidl. a retail trader in a market like that would not be able to compete with lidl on price.

HeidiHeidi · 20-09-2023 9:27am

There's two or three completely different things being conflated in this thread -

the once-weekly takeaway food (mostly) pop-up markets, like at Baggot St bridge on the canal, Herbert Park, Marlay Park and loads of other places

the bulk markets where you'd do your weekly store-cupboard shopping (but I agree with the poster above who says they could never and probably would never try to compete with the likes of Lidl and Aldi)

the artisanal/high-end food and souvenir markets aimed mostly at tourists or the wealthier end of the shopper spectrum (such as the English Market in Cork)

From the description, what the OP was at in Kilkenny sounds like the first - a pop-up takeaway food market, and there are loads of them around the place and they do great business. But I don't think they'd sustain a full-time presence anywhere - apart from anything, they're mostly lunchtime trade where someone grabs a fresh wrap/box of noodles etc. They are a fantastic addition to the neighbourhoods they're in on the days they happen, IMO, and long may they continue to thrive!

I haven't followed the sagas in detail, but the wrangling over the Iveagh and Smithfield markets seems to involve careering around and around between the second and third (as well as getting completely tied up in planning battles and rogue developers) and getting nowhere fast - to the point that the two will have actually fallen down before anything happens. And that would be a shame.

I don't remember the Iveagh markets when they were open, but we used to do a lot of bulk shopping for our large family when we were kids in the Smithfield one - I loved going over there, it was like a little adventure. And I continued going there for fresh flowers and plants when I needed them. But again, consumers turned to the discount retailers and it just became a very uncomfortable place to do wholesale business that could probably be done far more efficiently elsewhere (I think).

I'd love to see something, anything at all being done with the two derelict market sites.

_my0pia_ · 20-09-2023 6:49pm

Honest2Goodness in Glasnevin is open every Saturday from 9-3, veg stalls, meat stalls, café, bakeries etc.

its probably one of the best markets in Dublin, with the Green Door maybe being the second. it’s mainly indoors too!

tom1ie · 20-09-2023 6:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135458#Comment_121135458

Looking at the photos on google reviews and the bakery looks lovely.

I wonder is there anything like this on the south side (bar dun laoghrie)?

_my0pia_ · 20-09-2023 7:04pm

There’s the Green Door Market in Bluebell which is a similar enough setup - nothing further south side than there as far as I know!

HeidiHeidi · 20-09-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135498#Comment_121135498

Herbert Park has a huge food market, not sure which day it's on, but sounds similar. And the canal at Baggot St on Thursday is similar.

And I'm fairly sure Marlay Park has one as well.

tom1ie · 20-09-2023 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135531#Comment_121135531

Herbert park looks to be open in a Sunday between 11-4 according to google maps.

Ezeoul · 20-09-2023 8:33pm

Found this if anyone is interested! Its about the food truck markets.

Who, when and where.

https://irishvillagemarkets.ie/markets/

I used to love the one on the canal on Thursday, and would try something new if I could.

HeidiHeidi · 20-09-2023 8:44pm

This seems like a useful link - not sure how up to date it is, mind you.....

https://iomst.ie/markets/

magicbastarder · 20-09-2023 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135458#Comment_121135458

it's good, but it's in an industrial estate one day a week.

Hodors Appletart · 21-09-2023 9:17am

Love H2G, we go down regularly to get coffee and sort a nice dinner for saturday evening from stuff on sale there, the big stall with the olives, hummus and other stuff like that is brilliant.

Two butchers with great meat, and a fishmonger too. There are some good artisanal producers there as well, and they all love a chat.

There's also a monthly market in Farmleigh that is like a mix of fresh produce to bring home, and things like crepes, indian food and such to eat there

21-09-2023 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135564#Comment_121135564

Must return there, once went to it once and found it terrific 😃 with a really nice location

21-09-2023 9:56am

In the mid 1980s I was at the Quincy market in Boston, very nicely located in Faneuil Hall, remember being really impressed as we had nothing at all like it in Ireland at the time. Loved buying “chocolate coffee”, some Mexican type food and yummy American cake and eating it outside on one of the many seats in the sun amid a great atmosphere. Trying to explain the concept when I returned home was an uphill battle 🤣 as Irish folk couldn’t grasp this concept of “restaurant counters” with common seating, much of it outdoors.

Next time I came across this concept was in Singapore, just loved it and wished so much we could have this at home.

Gloomtastic! · 21-09-2023 2:30pm

Will it be enough?

https://www.thejournal.ie/iveagh-markets-funding-conservation-6174746-Sep2023/

The Nal · 21-09-2023 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138854#Comment_121138854

Ive read it needs €30m in work

orangerhyme · 21-09-2023 4:36pm

30m sounds too cheap.

Whatever it costs, it'll be worth it.

Great for the community. It's a real touristy area now also with Guinness and other attractions so would get plenty of footfall in tourist season. Lots of hotels and students nearby also.

It's also the type of place people would check out on a Saturday. The Marina market in Cork does very well.

I guess the ideal would be a food market and maybe an arts/crafts/designer section.

Similar can be done in the Fruit and Veg market near Capel St.

Dublin is big enough and they're far enough apart to support both.

I don't think money is the problem.

21-09-2023 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136039#Comment_121136039

There are loads of food truck markets around Dublin. The food is incredibly expensive though, considering you aren't getting a table or service. It's glorified takeaway.

Ezeoul · 21-09-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139501#Comment_121139501

I haven't been to any of the others, and the last time was pre-Pandemic, so I wouldn't be surprised if the prices have shot up!

It used to be a nice lunch on a Thursday though, and a chance to try something new. I don't live or work near any of them now. :(

neris · 21-09-2023 8:55pm

There's a food market in Howth. Lots of little food bars and coffees with a few little gift shops

tom1ie · 22-09-2023 5:22am

This thread could end up being a go to place for food market locations!

tom1ie · 22-09-2023 5:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140658#Comment_121140658

Seems to be open every weekend including bank holidays and the front 5 units are open 7 days a week.

4.3 star google review.

http://howthmarket.ie/

The Nal · 22-09-2023 8:38am

Well done everyone, we did it

https://www.irishtimes.com/food/2023/09/22/new-continental-style-food-hall-to-open-in-dublin-city-centre/

The Martin Barry Group has taken a lease on St Andrew’s Church on Suffolk Street in Dublin 2, and aims to have the landmark building open as a food hall and multipurpose hospitality and cultural experience event space in the first half of 2025.

About 250 jobs are expected to be created in hospitality and management roles at the food hall, the company says.

The group operates three food halls in Prague and one in Berlin, under the Manifesto Market brand, including what it describes as “Europe’s largest food hall”, which opened in Berlin at Potsdamer Platz in January of this year, in the first phase of a global expansion plan. The Berlin Manifesto Market has more than 20 food vendors, along with a beer tower, bar and wine room, spread over 4,400sq m.

There will be space for 12 food vendors at the Dublin site, a mix of “small and medium independent chefs, restaurateurs and operators” and a mix of “first-time businesses with novel concepts, as well as established chefs with fine dining experience”, the company says.

tom1ie · 22-09-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141837#Comment_121141837

Hope we get a beer tower also 😂

BlueSkyDreams · 24-09-2023 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141837#Comment_121141837

Great to see it finally happening. Not sure why it takes 18 months, but great news!!

Google should have their market open in GCD next year and there will be a large food market at Malahide castle.

Wouldnt bet a dime on DCC delivering anything. The council are useless. So Smithfield, Iveagh markets etc are off the table.

Thankfully, we have some private companies that know what they are doing & The St Andrews Church in particular will make a killing and will hit the tourist guides as a must see if done well.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-10-2023 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132631#Comment_121132631

Dublin buskers would be more likely to drive trade away than anything else, 90% of them are painful to listen to.

Permanent food market

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