Cancelled access and time in lieu

Atamiri · 07-06-2023 9:23am #1

Hello, I'm sorry for another question. Access (for one day 12-7pm) was cancelled by my ex because of our son's (4 years old) illness. I asked for it to be made up on some other afternoon but she rejected that saying "I didn't plan for my son to be sick". Then court order explicitly says "Any cancellation on 24 hours notice and time in lieu to be agreed within 7 days".

Is this a breach of the court order?

feelings · 08-06-2023 2:41pm

Unlikely a judge will care or characterize that as a breach in my experience. Been there done that... 'Sort it out between yourselves' unfortunately. I'd log it though in case it becomes a pattern.

Was he actually sick by the way ? Did you speak with him ?

Atamiri · 10-06-2023 6:05pm

I don’t think “sort it out between yourselves” works when your ex yells at you in front of the child, withholds access for months and reports you to the Gardaí with false allegations of child abuse.

Yes, he was sick, though I didn’t speak with him.

Senature · 10-06-2023 6:17pm

You could try emailing or texting her a reminder that the court order states time in lieu to be agreed within 7 days. Of course she can't necessarily give 24 hrs notice in case of illness.

Suggest three different times that suit you and ask her to pick which one is best. She may not comply but you are showing her that you won't just give up whenever she makes things a bit awkward. Can be good to get that point across at least.

If she still doesn't comply, calmly and politely let her know you'll be keeping a record of this and any future breaches of the court order. Might just be enough to convince her to back down.

11-06-2023 12:40pm

Then court order explicitly says "Any cancellation on 24 hours notice and time in lieu to be agreed within 7 days".

IME, this is an unusual condition, especially in relation to illness as no one can plan for that 24 hours in advance. It is also not common for the Court to insert conditions on making up for lost time in access orders.

But, given that it is in the order, if she does not agree to an alternative date within 7 days, it would be considered a breach.

One question you should ask the court to clarify - if the mother has to agree to an alternative date within 7 days, I would read that as she only has to agree to another day within 7 days - not that the missed day has to be happen within 7 days.

The offer could be to make it up at some other time, e.g. it could be added on to the next scheduled weekend, or bank holiday weekend, etc.

You should keep a record for the next time you are in court, and also note down any questions.

The advice used to be if there was a breach to bring the paper based Order to your local garda station, and get them to note the date of the breach and stamp it on the back of the order - but I don't know if you want to take it that far.

(eta), As an aside, if it were me, unless it was something serious, I'd let the child go to their other parent when they were sick. Part of being a parent is looking after kids when they are sick, not just for the good times! Dad's can, and should, look after sick kids too.

Atamiri · 13-06-2023 7:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701321#Comment_120701321

Thank you. As for this

“I'd let the child go to their other parent when they were sick. Part of being a parent is looking after kids when they are sick, not just for the good times! Dad's can, and should, look after sick kids too.”

he had conjunctivitis. In this case the access was only for one afternoon (Tue 12-7). The “long” access is Thu–Sat and I definitely could (and want to) look after my son when he’s sick, we would just stay at home instead of the usual activities outdoors.

13-06-2023 8:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711452#Comment_120711452

OMG. Ridiculous to refuse access due to conjunctivitis.

Definitely keep a record!

16-06-2023 4:54pm

Women can refuse access all they like and no number of court orders will impede them - who's going to take children off their, eh, "loving" mother? Just think of the optics and all the morons who would lose the plot at the very notion that there are bad mothers.

I was talking last month to a man whose ex had two houses - two! - while he was forced to live with his parents. The fact that one of those homes was one he bought and paid for before he met his ex was completely irrelevant in Irish law. His home was the larger home and she successfully removed him from that "family home", while keeping her own, smaller, home and its rental income by virtue of making criminal allegations against him which went on for years. The way the Irish courts treat mothers is as if they're all up for sainthood any moment is an outrage.

And then we have Kildare FG TD Bernard Durkan who stood up in Dáil Éireann two months ago, 19 April 2023, to reject the notion that mothers have limited rights to the children they share with fathers: "The nature and scale of the allegations brought to my attention are such that they have urged me to hurry and be more insistent in trying to achieve what women think should be their rights.... these are women's rights and they have an entitlement to their full rights without restriction. Nobody has the right to say to a mother of children that her rights are limited and will be subject to the views of the other side.' [https://debatesarchive.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2023041900044#WW00500]

Atamiri · 01-07-2023 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723551#Comment_120723551

Well, technically, breach of access order is a criminal offence, isn’t it? So she’s in contempt of court now, right? There are more problems piled up at the moment, there’ll be a court hearing soon.

02-07-2023 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793412#Comment_120793412

Her breach of an access order for a father is indeed a criminal offence [under Section 5 of the Courts (No 2) Act 1986] and she is committing a criminal offence. Alas, you learn pretty quickly in the Irish family law courts that justice, fairness, etc are fairytales from school CSPE class. It's not a justice process it's a legal process, with a decidedly sociopathic legal industry to be fed. Men are the fodder, and women the protected species. Simple once you get into the reality of this "gender equality" big lie.

I can find a single mother in all of Ireland who has been sent to prison for refusing access, sent by Judge Desmond Zaidan in Kildare on 8 November 2022 (https://kildare-nationalist.ie/2022/11/09/judge-loses-patience-and-orders-mothers-arrest-at-athy-court/ and https://kildare-nationalist.ie/2022/11/18/mother-sentenced-to-month-in-jailat-athy-court-for-not-complying-with-access-order/).

The above imprisonment is no doubt the case alluded to by FG TD for Kildare North Bernard Durkan in one of a number of full-on rants in Dáil Éireann against parental alienation in the past seven months. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Sure, judges all across Ireland threaten imprisonment again and again while the mother maintains unsubstantiated claims of abuse against the father to prevent his getting access.

In Irish family law courts all you need do is be 1) a woman; 2) *claim* abuse or *claim* to be in fear and that keeps a father out of his children's lives and out of the family home. Again, and again and again. Why, it's almost as if women in taxpayer-funded organisations like Women's Aid are facilitating meetings where women advise each other to employ precisely this tactic to take control of the family home and children. Surely not! Not a single taxpayer-funded quango ever, ever speaks up for all these men across Ireland.

TLDR: Lawyer the fúck up, and use everything in the law to fight her. Get to the support groups in your area and you'll meet loads of men who are also being denied access to their children (legally, as indicated in one of the cases below, "children's rights to their father"). You're not alone and for your own knowledge and sanity you need to check in with what other fathers are doing. Fight back and ignore the eternal victimhood industry of "poor me" "women's equality" bollocksology. They want everything, not equality - so operate entirely on that basis. Your heart and soul. This is a great government-created legal system for the legal industry indeed. Oh, and don't forget to pay your 23% tax/VAT to the Irish State for all your "legal services" because it's such a great monopoly system of years of delays, idiot judges with little understanding of family law and so, so much else.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/2021/05-may/interfering-with-child-access-orders-may-mean-jail

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30994428.html

https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2021/09/29/father-finally-gets-access-to-his-daughter-after-three-year-battle/

GarfieldandPookyBear · 21-09-2023 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793412#Comment_120793412

Technically yes but she’ll just get a talking to from the judge. The 7 days is for coming to an agreement for time in lieu at a later date. It’s actually very standard and not unusual. Document it and mention it in the next court hearing. I wouldn’t file a breach over that unless it’s continuous.

GarfieldandPookyBear · 21-09-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795551#Comment_120795551

The other side is the many fathers who file for access and don’t show up. Kids left waiting, sometimes in the rain with their mothers who have kept that day free for the dad. Maybe mom has made plans to do something while dad has the children which have to be cancelled when dad doesn’t show up. Mothers have to provide the children for access and be accountable yet the fathers are under no obligation to show up for the access they filed for. Even filing for more access constantly yet not showing up for access already available to them. You don’t read those stories in the media just the ones about fathers being hard done by. I’m speaking from experience here. Fathers can be just as spiteful and obstructive as mothers and it’s the children who suffer. Judges don’t take kindly to that kind of behaviour from either side. If this mother continues to obstruct the father’s access, I’m confident that dad will be awarded more if that is what he wants. Just focus on the children and what’s best for them. Be calm and respectful no matter how annoying the other parent is. Remember you are not just being judged by the court, you are being judged by your children and they are the ones that matter is the advice I would give anyone going through this.

Sunny Disposition · 21-09-2023 11:21am

Cancelling access because a child is sick is outrageous, kids are going to be sick very regularly from now until St Patrick's Day. But cancelling due to conjunctivitis is farcical altogether.

Atamiri · 21-09-2023 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137696#Comment_121137696

Thanks, that’s what I was planning to do.

Atamiri · 21-09-2023 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137803#Comment_121137803

I was always there. Our son wants to spend time with me so me not showing up would be very disappointing for him. In fact he never wants to go back and he used to cry before handovers (after months of withheld access).

Atamiri · 21-09-2023 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137824#Comment_121137824

I was fine with that, it was just one afternoon (12-7) but I wanted to see him some other afternoon which she refused.

Ash.J.Williams · 21-09-2023 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058299679/cancelled-access-and-time-in-lieu

The kid is ill

Ash.J.Williams · 21-09-2023 11:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137824#Comment_121137824

It isn't outrageous at all

Atamiri · 21-09-2023 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137886#Comment_121137886

That’s what the in lieu clause is for.

Ash.J.Williams · 21-09-2023 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137965#Comment_121137965

I'm speaking as a person who's been through it and came out of it successfully, my kid is 11 now and we've an amazing relationship, lots of experts along the way telling me they wouldn't put up with this or that and they were all wrong .

On that note pushing for time in lieu is not something I would have done, if a weekend is missed due to illness then take it as genuine and take the cancellation, do not pressure the woman at all and over time you'll get your time back

GarfieldandPookyBear · 22-09-2023 12:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137866#Comment_121137866

I’m sure you were, I wasn’t referring to you but to the above poster who was saying only one mother went to jail for breach of access. How many fathers have been sent to jail for not showing up and leaving their kids waiting only to be let down again? None. I’m tired of hearing that narrative that judges are biased towards mothers. They’re really not. They’re biased towards children. I know fathers with primary custody. Like I said, be respectful at all times and put your children first. It’s a long road. Best of luck to you. It’s not easy.

Cancelled access and time in lieu

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