Disability Payments Review

Please do quote the post here for us that equivocates lactose intolerance with someone who is wheelchair bound. If you can't, please don't make up nonsense. Nothing wrong with having differing opinions, discussing those like reasonable people often helps inspire solutions that might actually work. You're using an extreme example that represents the minority who abuse the system. No one here is advocating for those people. Share your thoughts and insights, don't put words in the mouths of other people to do that.

The issue is that sometimes policy makers try so hard to create obstacles and barriers to those people, and those obstacles harm the people who are genuinely in need, and often do not actually deter the chancers. The chancers have the time and energy to fill in 50 pages of documentation, they can travel 90 minutes and are willing to lie their way through an assessment. That isn't so easy for the genuine people. In the UK for many people, if you don't travel to your appointment to be assessed because you aren't able, you are penalised for not showing up. If you show up (often 90 minutes from home) it's used against you because you were capable of travelling to the appointment. Yes, you are supposed to be able to get assessed at home where needed - I know of people who are wheelchair bound requiring 24/7 care who have been refused at home assessment.

And I'm not saying just ask people what they want and blindly take their word. The department made a statement that 50% of people want to work and are afraid to for fear of being cut off their payment. Do you not agree it's worth asking those people for their input on what would actually help instead of deciding for them? Maybe 80% of those who feel able to work will say they need reassurance about what will happen financially if in a few weeks or months they are struggling. Maybe 60% of the people who want to work will express that workplaces aren't accommodating their needs.

I remember someone breaking their leg and not being able to come to work at their desk job because it was considered a hazard - how do policies like that impact those with long term mobility issues? Accessibility plays a big role. I encountered a woman having a great deal of difficulty navigating a shop in her wheelchair a few days ago. I've seen a few people with mobility issues have falls on the buses because the drivers have no consideration for letting them get steadied before speeding off. I'm planning to take a friend for lunch and the only way to get from her house to the local restaurant is by walking down the road because the paths have huge trees which prevent a wheelchair, pram etc. from passing.

And those are just a few examples I have recently encountered, and I am speaking as someone able bodied, I'm sure there are many challenges I am completely oblivious to because I'm not experiencing them first hand. So yes, I think we should ask people who are impacted what is preventing them from accessing employment. Maybe they're awaiting a surgery, maybe they don't have suitable transportation, maybe the employers aren't accommodating, maybe other staff aren't accommodating, maybe they are concerned they wont cope and will be cut off from any financial help, maybe they need some education or training to build confidence - but let's not ask about any of that because there was that one guy with lactose intolerance.

31% of those who apply for PIP in the UK are refused, and people with MS there do also get put into the equivalent of the proposed level 2 and 3 tiers - not just level 1. So while what you're saying should be true, it doesn't mean that's what happens in reality unfortunately. And sure, one can hope we'd do a better job here but that is by no means likely.

I haven't said we don't need oversight. But we have a much lower appeals rate than the UK with a 50% success rate. Their appeals rate is 15x higher and they also have a 75% success rate for appeals which indicates that the system they are using isn't working very well for those it's designed for. I think we actually have quite good oversight here. Sure, historically we didn't, but that could equally be helped by reassessing people who have been on disability long term - maybe not people who are missing 3 limbs but anyone who was awarded on the basis of a bad back or any conditions which may have improved. Get some documentation from their GPs that the condition is still present and being treated, with additional assessment as appropriate.

I have several conditions myself (including lactose intolerance) - so do many, many people, and most of us are working without remotely entertaining the idea of disability. One of the big issues in the UK is that they generally don't look for anything from the applicants actual doctor(s). Here, your GP needs to sign off on your application - which I imagine drastically reduces the ability for people to falsely claim things like being in a vegetative state. (Although if someone told me that a person in a vegetative state was required to come in for an assessment I wouldn't be shocked.) In the UK the people making these assessments have never met the applicants, they don't know their history, and they may not even be remotely familiar with the condition(s) the person has. That isn't good oversight, it just doesn't work or make sense. It is easier to abuse for those who are well enough for work but just taking advantage of the system, but far more harmful to those who really do need support.

If you have a source for the 1 million people coming off benefits before the system was introduced would you pass it on to me please? Had a look and I'm getting results about them trying to get 1 million off benefits by 2027 instead of what I'm looking for. Thanks!

I would also wonder if the man with lactose intolerance was being entirely honest about why he was receiving disability, given he was found dead in prison aged 23 with no foul play involved. Might be the case but it does strike me as odd given how difficult it is for people to get disability.

I'm all for helping people get back into the workforce, but doing this by force to those most vulnerable isn't helping. It's harmful. It's also hard to quantify how many people and up needing further medical intervention due to harms caused by being forced into the workforce when they actually aren't well enough, resulting in a deterioration of their condition. That has a cost too - both to the individuals and to the state.

I'm not in any way saying we shouldn't have oversight, I'm saying we shouldn't import a system that has proven itself to be beyond broken. And it's a system that worsens the problems instead of solving them.

Ireland has one of the lowest rates of people with disability in the EU. Ours is 11.8%, the EU average is around 25%. Odds are, we don't magically have less people with a disability, they just aren't being categorised in the same way. So when other EU countries are saying the disabled there have a 40%+ labour force participation and ours is 37% - that's likely because the majority of the other half of our people with disabilities are working and aren't being considered as having a disability. According to the National Disability Authority, looking at those with a disability who are able to participate in the labour force, we're at almost 50% - the EU average. If we're going to identify problems, we should be using proper data that is comparable - not making assumptions off skewed data. And we should be verifying what the problems are (including abuse of the system) and come up with targeted solutions to those problems - not using an idea from elsewhere that doesn't work to begin with.

Thank you!

I just had a look at the UK gov website statistics (Stat-Xplore) for the different payments, the number coming off Incapacity very closely tracks with the number moving on to ESA - perhaps many of those million claims were people submitting claims who were unlikely to get approved anyway. They don't to correlate in any significant way to numbers coming off of disability payments. It doesn't indicate what you said earlier with 1 million coming off disability payments. The vast majority who came off Incapacity moved to ESA. There were roughly 2.6million on Incapacity in 2008, in 2014 there were just under 2.6million on Incapacity and ESA combined.

Hi. I am diagnosed with severe dibiltating anxiety. Doctor put it on my form as lasting indefinitely like forever. I have undiagnosed depression and I believe ptsd from childhood. Every day is a effort to keep going. My head is foggy a lot of the times. I'm slow. And I believe in this day and age especially in Ireland everyone needs to be fast and super speed. If you're not, you're useless. I had a job many years ago only stacking shelves in a supermarket but I was too slow couldn't cope and believe I was let go because of that. I remember now waking up shaking and being sick every morning before going in.

I never ate lunch ever or took a break cause I had never seen inside of the lunch room. I was too nervous and shy of not knowing who would be in there at the time I had to go for lunch.

If it was managers for example I'd just feel stupid and awkward.

I'd go on break but hang out at the back of the store and continue working keeping out of view of managers in case someone noticed I wasn't on break. When my break was over I'd go back to the front of the store and keep working. I starved all day cause I was too scared to use the canteen.

I was just too slow. I have zero confidence in myself and my ability. I am a v kind loving caring person. I can go about my day fine most of the time. Like others have said you can have good and bad days. You're not the same all the time.

I am not a chancer. I am not one who just got diagnosed so I wouldn't have to work. I wouldn't have the energy to do all that just for the money.

I am permanently exhausted. My body shakes and vibrates. This is using my energy causing exhaustion. Right now my body is vibrating. I'm in a constant state of stress.

Before I was on disability I had to go to a social welfare appointment where they talk to you about your options and what do you want to do.

I started crying in front of this 60yr old professional woman. I couldn't cope.

She gave me their card if I wanted to use their service when I was able and feeling better she said. That was years ago.

Reading through here people are very good at speaking for themselves and explaining their situation. I'm not.

I'd go to a meeting with someone and try and explain. They think I'm just a bit tired. Next thing I'm doing a course or job I'm not able for or can't cope with.

I'm one of those v nervous types I am terrified and feel like I'd have to say yes if offered something. Cause you can't say no.

That's just a bit of backstory on me.

I wanted to know others thoughts. This tier thing has me nervous.

I would not want 265 or whatever it is. I'd be ok with my normal amount but can't cope with daily life already.

I truly believe I should be dead. Shouldn't have been born. Waste of space. I find it hard to just have energy or motivation to wash myself.

I have to get up the strength to wash my hair. I'm 34 by the way.

My sister has a young child 4 year old.

She has started back working. Has like two jobs and takes on lots of over time. I mind the child 5 days a week.

It's more of I'm just helping her out. A week ago I was minding him from 10 in the morning till 8 at night. Five days. I was bet at the end of the week.

I do that all the time. I'm basically her childcare so she can work. Some days would be 9 till 6. Which I consider a normal working day. Even though it's my nephew and for my sister I do feel like I've worked and done some good at the end of the day.

I feed him take care of his needs keep him entertained.

Other days can be random. I might not be needed till 3 but will be staying with the child till 8 at night.

So it can vary sometimes. So I couldn't op off somewhere cause any minute I'll be needed.

I do feel like I'm working. I don't earn money from it.

Clearly my time is taken up.

Would they see this as me doing something and being happy with that.

Course if I wasn't available my sister would probably have to pay someone to mind the child.

There is other family members but everyone has jobs or school.

I'm just wondering would they take it seriously like ok she's doing something so that's ok. Not force me into something I can't cope with.

For example I have to mind the child overnight soon cause she is going away. If I was given some appointment or something by them I wouldn't be able to go.

I have to care for the child all day and night till she's home. I'm not readily available to take up something.

Do you think like taking care of my nephew 5 days a week would be like me working to them?

..also I'm not good for speaking for myself or explain my situation. I know my sister would speak up for me if it came to it. Tell them how busy I am and how I suffer with my anxiety everything. It's chronic.

Tell me your thoughts.

I'm sorry to read about your issues. I hope I don't come across as insulting but you seem to contradict yourself.

You say you are not able to work yet you are childminding up to 10 hours a day 5 days a week. Minding a child for free will not be considered work. Saying I can't attend won't wash with the DSP unfortunately as they will view your sister's child care needs as her concern and not yours.

The reassessment would be good particularly if those being reassessed could be assessed by those who are knowledgeable about the conditions involved - ie. if it's mental health related then a psychiatrist for example or other relevant professional. But there needs to be a cost effective and efficient way to implement it that isn't taking up more of the valuable time of our healthcare professionals when they are so stretched as is. Maybe even a yearly sign off on disability by a person's doctor(s) with random reassessments or reassessments done where the evidence of need isn't very strong. Then if doctor(s) are seen to be signing off on it where it's entirely inappropriate, or in higher numbers than average with no reasonable explanation, that can then be investigated.

And no unnecessary reassessment for those where treatment is not going to improve their ability to work or engage in training etc.

Categories for reassessment aren't an issue, it already exists to some degree but could probably be improved upon. It's just that isn't what's being proposed here. The proposal is that 50% of those on disability be placed into a group that requires them to engage in training/employment - and they've come up with this off skewed data - they even acknowledge the data issue in the footnotes of the Green Paper.

Jobpath was a disaster (we imported that from the UK too) - and didn't offer value for money to the state either - with a poor rate of helping people into sustainable employment. What's being proposed here sounds to be a very similar scheme for people with disabilities. The focus is on the study finding there are people wanting to work but are worried about losing their payment - but ignores the other issues that were found in that same study including employers being unwilling to make adjustments and discrimination faced by people with disabilities. And instead of alleviating the aforementioned worry, the plan will exacerbate it for the majority of those in receipt of a disability payment.

I don't at all disagree with you that we need to ensure that the system isn't being abused - but we shouldn't ever do that at the expense of those who rely on that system. And we also need to consider the cost versus benefit of that too - ie. if it costs €5 million and only keeps 50 scammers out of the system, as distasteful as it may be - it isn't worth it.

I also think we should help as many people who are able to engage in training/employment to do so, but we should do that in a proactive and supportive way, listening to the problems and concerns and addressing them ad we go. I don't think we should bring in measures that have already proven to be harmful and to not actually work.

To those who have expressed concerns about how this may impact them or their loved ones, I suggest you go to page one of this thread for the Green Paper. It explains there how you can share your own thoughts or concerns. Even if all you have to say is that it's causing you concern it's worth doing. As others have said, hopefully it's very unlikely this will ever actually happen. It just frustrates me seeing proposals that have proven to be harmful elsewhere, particularly when I interact daily with people facing those harms.

What tier would someone who is getting cared for full time by there partner who is receiving carers allowance be on?

I just watched the dail clip where paul murphy questioned leo varadkar about the proposed reforms. paul asked leo if he seen i daniel blake. The snide remark by leo about benefits street really showed his contempt for people on any type of social welfare payments.

Ireland must be on the only country in the world where someone can be on "Disability" because of a drink problem.