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The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Wrong thread



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,290 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Funny you should use that exact example as I think he probably would



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,719 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Some game, a game neither team deserved to lose, SA will rue not having a kicker. A hard physical game from both teams with zero cards or TMO interventions which is brilliant.

    Ref had a good team too, very clear in what he wanted.

    Aki deserved his motm award, he's our player of the tournament if giving it to a forward I think I'd have given it to POM, he was immense.

    Next up Scotland, I think we'll see a few changes, maybe the subs starting and a few 3rd choice players getting a run from the bench.

    From the QF on, it will be the same 23 til we exit the tournament



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    We need to beat Scotland. Best team available, end of story.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Yeah lads I think anyone who is expecting any unenforced rotation for Scotland bar Sheehan is living in cuckoo land.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,804 ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    Yep.

    maybe once the victory is assured, then sure empty the bench, but until that point is reached, it must be the strongest 15 available…



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭supermans ghost


    What are you on about?

    seriously Ireland have never made it past the Quarter finals of what is basically a 9/10 team tournament (on 2 occasions they did not even make the quarter finals) they are now the so called no 1 ranked team in the world going into this tournament and one of the favourites to win it. If they do not make it past the quarter final then that is an abject failure in my book.

    Couldn’t be simpler.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,331 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    If we did win would the ulster lads get OBE's?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,416 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Naughty, Naughty. Very Naughty.

    Actually they'll be claimed as a great English win by the media. 2 world cups.



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭supermans ghost


    Relax man, I must be killing your buzz by stating basic facts that are relative to Ireland’s abysmal performance at previous world cups.

    Ireland are one of the favourites to win the tournament, they are ranked the No 1 team in the world (for what that’s worth) I’m sure the bookies factor it in when calculating odds, this is essentially a 10 country tournament, so if Ireland do not make it past the quarter final, it’s a massive failure. Simple as.

    If ever that Roy Keane quote about lads going to a tournament for a laugh and a few pints, it applies to the Irish Rugby Team, it’s simply not good enough to get one big win in the group stage and then go home at the quarter final stage thinking “wasn’t that a great tournament, we did well” maybe you are happy with the win against South Africa yesterday and you had a few beers and got to sing a few bars of “de fields” but I for one will be regard it as a massive failure.

    Frankly if you don’t see that, then I’d say you’re deluded in your thinking.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭supermans ghost


    He’s 100% correct, nobody remembers or gives a sh*t about the group stages of the Rugby world cup, the real action starts at the quarter final stage, that’s when the real tournament starts.

    Don’t get too caught up in anything Ireland achieve in the group stages, to do so is folly, did the same myself in 2015 after attending the French game in Cardiff, got all caught up in the hype and got tickets for both the quarter finals and semi finals, wound up sitting next to an equally deflated Scotsman at the semi final between Australia and Argentina at Twickenham. Lesson learned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Oh what's this, an overly critical (misspelled) username with a handful of posts, making reductive posts? What a breathe of fresh air



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭supermans ghost


    Oh my, let’s call the grammar police, it’s a username for an anonymous message board, get a life dude. By the way you forgot to put a full stop after your last sentence.😀

    More importantly, what does the number of posts an individual has have to do with the merits of the point they are making in a thread. Sounds to me like you are a boards snob.

    Some of the posters on this thread are terribly thin skinned, can’t handle someone stating the obvious about the expectations of this Irish team at this World Cup. In fact I”ll up the ante, looking at the remaining teams and based on the performances of the other favourites to date, then, if Ireland don’t make it to the World Cup Final that’s a failure.

    That’s based on assuming they top their pool and beat NZ in the quarter final, they would more than likely be playing Wales in the semi final, those are all teams that on all known present form, Ireland would be expected to beat, of course players can get injured, but that happens every team. Can you handle that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭ersatz


    beating SA is a big deal for fans but (hopefully) for the coaches and players it’s just another group match on the way to bigger things. Doing a lap after beating the world champs is good form given the support that showed up. No doubt that support made a difference on the field, that’s valuable and worth the acknowledgement.

    If Ireland don’t get past the quarters they’ll fail to get past the quarters again. It’s a failure. If the do get past the quarters there’s a fairly handy route to the final, losing to England or Wales would mean some sort of breakdown in our game or form because on paper we have the beating of those teams. SA, France and NZ are a different story. We don’t have a much better than 50/50 chance against those teams on any day and I’d say the match on Saturday was evidence of that. Very fine margins even though we played very well. We just didn’t get to play our preferred game because SA are almost flawless defensively. Fr and NZ aren't that, but they can create scores out of thin air and penetrate out defence occasionally. Not often but enough that if our attack isn’t 100% we can lose to them.

    As a matter of fact not winning is failing to win. But it’s not always a strategic failure. SA lost on Saturday but I’d say they’ll feel ok about it because they may think they’ve learned how to beat us. Fir us getting past the quarters but losing in a final won’t be any great failure in a strategic sense, any more than Munster losing their first European final as some sort of strategic failure. Perhaps it makes victories later all the sweeter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If we win. we failed to lose.

    Fupping failures!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Sheehan,Murray,henshaw,mccarthy,Henderson,baird are all very much in contention to start against Scotland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭typhoony


    The way the draw is our route to semi-final is much harder than in previous tournaments for that reason I would call it a blip on this team not a failure if we don't get to the semi-final, they've been outstanding over the last 18 months and that can never be taken away.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You've entirely missed the point of my post.

    It's absolutely fine if you want to make the argument that the group stage games mean nothing and it's all about the QF. But if you're making that argument after previously making a big deal about our poor form in the warm-ups (which is what TRC did)... then that's entirely inconsistent.

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So 7:1.

    Gimmick or legitimate tactic?

    For me it's a gimmick. South Africa didn't back their attack against us so tried to kick their points (including some very challenging long range kicks). That they went with such a forwards oriented game plan and didn't bring a reliable kicker is amazing to me. Yes Pollard is going to play against Tonga but therein lies the other problem. South Africa didn't back their attack against us, but they're bringing in an out half that is less of a play maker than the incumbent. My confidence really started to grow when I saw Faf stepping up to take that first long range kick. The first one was a mark of respect for Ireland's defence but the second one was drifting into 'not backing ourselves' territory, especially given it was so wayward.

    I said in the intro that unless South Africa REALLY felt they had our number at lineout time the 7:1 split against a strong kicking team like Ireland didn't make much sense. South Africa really had our number at lineout time. Or we had our own number - am not entirely sure but if you told me we'd lose 5 of our own lineouts in the first half and nothing else I'd have presumed we lost the game.

    Ryan was as critical at the breakdown as you would have expected, but I think some of the line out issues are with him. Not just in terms of calls, but either his jumping has deteriorated or the extra weight he's padded on has made it harder for the lifters - he's just not getting up as fast.

    With a functioning lineout we'd have really hurt South Africa in that first half. We were moving them around nicely through phases and finding gaps - but we spent so much of the game recovering from line out failure that we couldn't impose ourselves as consistently as we're accustomed to.

    That very nearly could have been another La Rochelle, and to be honest I think the experience of that game played into things here. Shortening the lineout and using that fast throw to POM at 2 or 4 seems very hard to counter but we kept good variation all the same.

    Our exits were much better today critically (Lowe and Sexton's line kicking have clearly gotten further work in the build up) but our kicking in general was as good as you would have hoped even when under pressure. Again - get the lineout working and we're getting so much more from those early exchanges, and South Africa didn't seem to kick a huge amount. They generally tried to hold onto possession so kicked when they had advantage or ran it in and that was fine with Ireland, got their back three nice and fatigued for the final 20 with no replacements to come on. We looked comfortable defending later in the second half despite the 'Bomb Squad'.

    Sexton having the second most tackles is not hard to believe. They ran at him a good bit. But it's still hard to believe. 38.

    Thought he played as well as I've ever seen him.

    Ringrose had a very physical game. Bundee is unplayable. Back three are just an absolute joy to watch.

    But it really was the pack - incredibly physical and hard game for the full 80. Lot of very tired and sore bodies today, no more so than Andrew Porter. All had moments, no one less than a 7 but on the day I have Ireland down generally as a 7/10.

    We squandered good possession in the 22 and we're a clinical team, we would have converted some of that into points. We can be second best at the set piece but not to that extent and the coaches have been on notice of this for a good while now. If we fail to progress because of the lineout it would be a very foreseeable and disappointing failure.

    Our general skill and fitness level is better than SA. Our basic structures in attack and defence are better than SA. We should be able to replicate that performance and beat them, but controllable variables like the lineout going wrong can change things rapidly.

    Otherwise we look very, very good. We stood up physically and if either team at times looked like they were wilting a bit it was South Africa, particularly towards the end of the first half. I think we probed the fringes better but our attack wasn't as cohesive under the extreme pressure of SAs line speed. When you look at Hansen's score - Sexton had virtually no space or time to work the wrap and only just pulled it off.

    Their game changes now if they go with Pollard. If things play out as predicted that France game will be very interesting presuming he starts.

    From an Ireland POV I think we go and absolutely steamroll Scotland now. I think they'll go into the final round with a tall task and if we open up a score or two early on it very quickly becomes insurmountable. A statement win that as a blow out isn't overly taxing would be perfect before NZ.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That's the big disappointment about the game.

    I was expecting us to score more freely and force SA to come at us.

    The line-out malfunction when we were in great positions and had the intent to go for more than 3 was heartbreaking really,,,but fair fuchs to them for working out a way to still win it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah it was frustrating but you could see how dejected SA were after the game. They threw the kitchen sink at us and even with our set piece well below par we still won. That has to be very concerning.

    Something else occurred to me. I bet our kickers have been practicing kicking under the new clock system and I presume we've primarily been practicing how to drag the shite out of it when needed. Crowley kicked with literally 2 seconds to spare on Saturday, I wonder was that block down against Samoa the price we paid to get maximum return from late game delay tactics!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    I would say that SA didn't serve to win and Ireland didn't deserve to loose!

    Yes Ireland got the rub of the green with the turnover at the end but over the 80mins they deserved it.

    POM and Aki took Ireland out of the burning fire that was the opening 30mins.


    I agree. I don't think Ireland need or should go with their strongest XV v Scot.

    Baird and Henderson should definitely start.

    Argument for Herring. Hindsight - he should have started this game even though they needed Kelleher in the scrum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭Dont Be at It


    I find it a hard game to assess, but there's very little between the teams. The game was almost defined by key failures by both teams rather than anything positive (ireland's try apart).

    Had ireland's early lineouts close to the south african line not been such a shambles we could have been sitting on a 10 or 14 point early lead, which would have forced south africa to come out and play.

    Conversely had south africa nailed their kicks they would have beaten us by a score or so.

    Ireland showed unbelievable character (with a little bit of luck, which you need in 50 50 games anyway) to come away from their biggest territorial purple patch in the game with zero points and a lineout in disarray yet still grind out a win.

    Looking forward - the nz game is so far from a gimme. We'd beat them in a mini series but in a one off game they could easily play above their recent form and beat us maybe one in three times. I tend to be a pessimist but Ireland's participation in rugby world cups will do that. 😅

    Don't think I'd like to play south africa again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Definitely want to play SA again since it would be in the final!

    We did fix the lineout as the game went on which is good. Obviously it cost us a lot early but thankfully SA repaid us with the missed kicks.

    It feels unfortunate that Ireland only hit form in World Cups when we have a tough route to the semi finals. NZ are down but not out by any stretch and I am sure it will be a tough game.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,514 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    scotland thinking they can beat ireland. not a time to be taking the foot off the gas that's for sure.

    Scotland winger Kyle Steyn insists they 'know how to beat' Ireland


    https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2023/0925/1407132-scotlands-steyn-insists-they-know-how-to-beat-ireland/



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭Dont Be at It


    True enough on the first part 😂. France would be no pushovers in a final either



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


     if you told me we'd lose 5 of our own lineouts in the first half and nothing else I'd have presumed we lost the game.

    If you take that with the the ruck speed and ball in plays stats:

    • Lost our first 5 lineouts in the first 30 mins.
    • Ball in play time way down at 27 mins
    • Ireland's ruck speed way slower at 4.83 seconds.

    It's pretty incredible we won in that context.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    If they know how to do it, why don't the ever do it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I would be loathe to criticise a game manager of the calibre of Sexton but I think when the dust settles what will be worrying SA more is that if Sexton had elected to take the points on offer and if we had scored that knock-on SA may have been looking at a bit of a rout.

    Had we racked up more points earlier we would have had the confidence to play with a bit more creativity and freedom. The dodgy line-out snuffed all of that out and the line-out IMO failed from our own incompetence/confusion rather than anything SA were doing.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nienaber said the same about us, as did Rassie I think. They know how to beat Ireland, and what Ireland will bring. Yes we might offer pockets of innovation but they know the players and the formations and general philosophy of Ireland and what you can do to counter us.

    The problem isn't know - it's doing. It's very hard to stop Ireland imposing their game plan, that's why were such contenders.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Defined by key failures

    Its a good way of summing it up.

    77' mins 5m scrum to Ireland. Even if Ireland didn't win that penalty for 13-8 Ireland could have scored off that scrum 15/17 v 8) or at the very least saw the game out in the SA 22.

    Ifs and buts.....but I dont believe that IF SA scored their kicks they would have won the game. Its too simplistic and I think Ireland would have found a way to win.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,379 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    If Faf has scored the pen that hit the post, they wouldn't have scored their try as it came from the next phase of play. That would have been 1 kick scored for 3 points rather than two kicks missed for 5. It actually worked out better for them that Faf hit the post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    have to say I saw this and was worried .. BUT ball down/grounded before elbow .. phew :D




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,450 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Just on this, it annoys me when people get caught up with counting things like missed kicks etc. if one of those kicks goes over it’s a different restart and everything after that moment is different. You can argue a last minute kick to win would have changed the result easily but things early on in the game going different alter the rest of the match.



  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭terrarev


    Knowing how to beat Ireland and being good enough to do it are different things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭Dont Be at It


    Yeah, wouldn't disagree hugely on the penalties bit. Two of them were tough kicks as well.

    Very little between the teams and thankfully we came in the right side of it. Great game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,961 ✭✭✭TRC10




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    We absolutely were not saying 2019 would be different. At most we may have said 2011 and 2015 would be different, but from recollection we were very nervous about 2015 because of all the injuries. And in 2011 we didn’t exactly have a QF hoodoo over us then as we hadn’t even made the QF in 2007 and weren’t contenders before then at all.

    Heres some actual facts that might shine a different light on things. In the two RWCs where we had a big pool stage win (2011 vs Australia and 2015 vs France), how do we compare to where we are now:

    Now:

    • Grand Slam Champions
    • Ranked number 1 in the world
    • Have beaten everyone worth mentioning at least once in the last 18 months and gone unbeaten for 13 games coming into the tournament.
    • Have won a big pool game
    • Have been comfortable in all other games we have played in the RWC.


    2011:

    • Had a poor 6Ns where 1 good performance against England was all we had to cheer about.
    • Were ranked 8th in the world.
    • Barely scraped past Italy and Scotland in the 6Ns, had lost to Australia, SA, NZ, France and Wales in the previous 18 months and had never beaten NZ. We went into the tournament winning just 4 of the 15 games we’d played in the previous 18 months.
    • Had won a big pool game against Australia.
    • Struggled more than we should have against Italy and, especially, the USA in the pools.


    2015:

    • Were 6Ns champions.
    • Were ranked 6th in the world.
    • Had beaten SA, Australia, France and England in the previous 18 months, but had also lost to Wales and still had yet to ever beat NZ. We came into the RWC off the back of 2 defeats in the warm ups and with a win rate of 11 of 14 in the previous 18 months.
    • Had won a big pool game against France.
    • Struggled more than we should have against Italy but otherwise performed well enough in the pools.


    There’s no point in talking about 2011. We’re light years ahead of where we were then. We were in a good place in 2015 until we shipped a lot of injuries and lost SOB to suspension in that France game. We won the big pool match but it cost us badly.

    We are in an even better place now than 2015, without doubt. And we don’t seem to have paid a price for that big pool win at all. We appear to have 33 fit and available players going into the last round of the pool stages.

    If you can’t see how this year is different from the above, well then I don’t think anyone can help you at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I hope that account and that Twitter post are paid takes….



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭CMcsporty


    Fair play to RG Snyman. Magnanimous In defeat.

    Ireland were immense in defence

    https://x.com/rterugby/status/1706264613111619811?s=46&t=LZNAt8uQdNSsqynXTsT0dw



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭CMcsporty


    "I must say, in the 30 Tests I’ve had, that’s definitely up there. It was definitely a physical battle and they really stuck in there.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭riddles


    Agree against top sides an early penalty an attempt at points should be taken - worst case scenario you like get possession on the restart. Should be agreed before the game to be honest.

    Post edited by riddles on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    "They are a team we play every year (in the Six Nations) so we know how to beat them


    eh.....




  • Administrators Posts: 54,316 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    One thing that does concern me, should we meet again, is the scrum. I don't think we won a scrum penalty all day from our own effort, if we got a penalty it was because of a SA technical mistake (too early, over extending etc)? Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I was at the game and it's hard to figure out what exactly pens are for live.

    The line out was a shambles, but I think largely just an off day for us there, particularly for Kelleher. I don't really understand why we didn't just call some throws to POM at the front after the 2nd or 3rd mess up, just to try get Kelleher some confidence back.

    Other than that though, fantastic performance, I think outside of Kelleher you can't really pick anyone who was below their usual standard.

    The call at the end was a bit lucky IMO, ball was there to be played.

    Regarding Scotland, we'll batter them, I'd pick fairly strong with a view of getting a lead and then using the bench as early as possible, just to keep the momentum going. Though we should be approaching the next block with the view that we'll be playing 4 games in 4 weeks, so perhaps some rotation will happen.

    Whisper it quietly, but after that result if we play to our potential then we're getting to the final. There are no teams that we can meet between now and then that can beat us at our best, and I include New Zealand in that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,283 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Was the ball not there illegally via somebody off their feet?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I thought our scrum was fine when their LH wasn't able to bore in. Never played in the forwards, so pinch of salt etc, but I've come to the view that generally, the only reason you see a scrum dominating is because they've gotten away with skullduggery. The one where we got shattered, their LH clearly stepped out and drove across. It's on our lads to stop that. There were a good few rock solid ones in the game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,054 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    It's a strange quirk in the laws that a player can be standing out of bounds and still score a try. Actually saw it happen in a 7s game last year. Judging by the reaction, a lot of players don't know that law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    I love the way they've been playing the long game for the last 4 years so. Impressive to have the knowledge and the discipline not to use it for so many years as a means of gearing up for this world cup



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,925 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Some brilliant photos in todays papers.




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