DCM 2023 Mentored Novices Thread

Lazare · 19-09-2023 10:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128968#Comment_121128968

Fair play to you. You should do it at half marathon pace. That will get you good and ready.

Lazare · 19-09-2023 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129052#Comment_121129052

Nobody else do this, obv.

Murph_D · 19-09-2023 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128968#Comment_121128968

And don't forget your hydropack!

bazwaldo · 19-09-2023 2:39pm

I can't believe I did not know about this thread till today. Doing my first marathon too and after reading a few pages I'm relieved to see some of the same questions, problems, feelings as myself. I am using a Garmin 5 days a week training plan and I keep an eye on the DCM beginner plan too and pinch the long run from that most Sundays as its distance based compared to time on the Garmin and I want to make sure I am doing enough for the long run in particular. My goal time is 5hrs but finishing it without any disaster is priority #1.

Definitely starting to feel the pain the last couple of weeks. Did a 28km at the weekend which I was delighted with as I kept a consistent dog slow pace for 24km before taking a few mins walk. I find my legs just seize up and hips get sore after 15km and beyond. I took my first gel on the last long run which I think helped a lot and lessoned the struggle. Also, the much reduced humidity compared to recent weeks helped big time. I'll take some extra gels this week and I will try an electrolyte tablet/drink before and during too so see how that changes things. I have the feeling that I'm coming down with a cold or I could be just run down so taking a few days easy now.

On the day I'll carry a small bottle of water (or some liquid) at the start and use each water stations. Carry a few gels in pockets. Have decided to leave the earbuds (I always train with music) to make the most of absorbing the atmosphere. Beyond that I'm still working it out.

wickowmom · 19-09-2023 3:57pm

Hi everyone,

I have been reading this thread since the summer - loads of great advice that’s why I’m posting today. I signed up for Dublin last year with the best of intentions to train well but unfortunately it hasn’t happened, mostly due to lack of motivation, if i’m honest. So now I’m in a predicament as what to do, my longest run to date is 23k and that was three weeks ago. I am running a half at the weekend plus I intend on adding 3/4 km before it, bringing me up to around 25km hopefully. My question is - is it too late, should I just call it a day or should I run it extra slow on the day. I have ran a couple of marathons before all in and around 4hrs and also all without a lot a training but not as little as this time. All advice welcome. Thanking you in advance

MisterJinx · 20-09-2023 8:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121130629#Comment_121130629

Hi Wicklowmom, at this stage you have very little training in the legs so if you do want to do it then you would need to focus on getting a long run build in place and some other easy running. You should concentrate on building up your long run for the next 4 weeks with a 2 week taper to DCM. I'd also recommend that you rule out any time and just focus on completing the marathon and enjoying the day out :-)

MisterJinx · 20-09-2023 8:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121130268#Comment_121130268

Good stuff. Use the next few weeks to get your fuelling sorted, 1 Gel really isn't enough, especially when you start to hit the longer distances, it will make you feel much better during and after the run if you've had enough fuel on the run itself. You can aim to take a Gel anywhere from every 35 to 45 minutes.

Legits · 20-09-2023 10:48am

Total of 52.9k last week.

It was made up of:

5.2/ 5 / 10.2 / 5.3 / 4.9/ 4.9 / 17.2

Mostly went to Plan although on the long Run I had hoped to do at least a HM but wasn’t feeling it following the race last week and was a little short on time.

Decided to cut the LSR down a little as I also woke up with a little sore throat on Saturday. Luckily it all passed by Monday this week and I am back to feeling good Looking ahead I have to do 21k LSR this week and 22km the week after with a 32k the last big long run.

I am feeling very comfortable with my Marathon Pace of 6:20 so just need to stay fit and hope my feet can endure the pain. I think I need to get some new socks I wore an old pair of Under Armour Rugby Socks during the week for a 7k and the feet felt really good I think they gave a little extra padding on the metatarsal so may try them on a long run.

I also bought the Prime X Strung on Adidas sale for €190 I was thinking of trying them for the marathon but not 100% sold on them vs the Alphafly I have but I bought them in the black Friday sale last year and they have circa 150k of heavy running on them so not sure the bounce is as good.

Starting to plan my trip to Dublin for the run now its such a hassle to be picking up numbers the day before in town decided to book a hotel instead of staying with family near by as it will be quieter as long as the wife and kids don’t decide to come too.

wickowmom · 20-09-2023 2:36pm

Thanks Misterjinks for the advice. Quick question, should I aim to run the hm in 2.30 instead 2hrs to get the time on my feet?

MisterJinx · 20-09-2023 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134206#Comment_121134206

I'm not sure what your general paces are however just run it easy, treat it like an lsr but with cheering and a great atmosphere. You want a little recovery from it as possible so you can keep getting out the following week and getting the miles in rather than needing a few days recovery afterwards

Sunny Dayz · 22-09-2023 9:50am

Good luck to everyone running the half marathon this weekend. How are we set? What's the plan of action for it?

Sunny Dayz · 22-09-2023 10:10am

My plan for this week has me at 28km for my long run. So I intend on doing 7km beforehand easy warm up pace. Have been mulling over what pace to do. There's always the temptation in the back of my mind to maybe see if the PB (2:07) is there for the taking with such a good training block under my belt so far but there's the worry of injury. Someone suggested to me to do marathon pace for the first half and pick it up to half marathon pace for the second half - which I think puts me at about 2:10 which isn't bad and kinda around what time I had in mind anyway. Feeling a bit nervous.

Seifer · 22-09-2023 11:13am

My half-marathon PB (1:42:19) is relatively soft as it's from the first time I attempted the half-marathon distance and I only really picked up the pace in the last 5 km. So I think I'm gonna go for it; basically just need to run the pace I ran the Frank Duffy at with 5 km tacked on the end. I'd hope I'm in better shape a month on but legs are probably more tired; hopefully the mini-taper does the job there.

I've been attempting a practice carb load over the last 2.5 days and it's made me realise I'm potentially not eating enough to fuel training generally and there's no way I'll be able to eat the planned 160g carb breakfast tomorrow morning 😝 Will be something I try out again for one or two of the remaining long runs.

Anyone have a Strava link to the route?

MisterJinx · 22-09-2023 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142260#Comment_121142260

I think someone else just posted a link to the route that you can download on your watch in one of the marathon / race series forums, have a quick look.

For the race last year (and it's what I intend to do this year) is that I went hard but not 100%. I wanted a good race effort but not to buckle myself for the following week or risk injury so I went at say 90% effort. The half is a great benchmark for the Marathon so getting fairly close to your full effort means you can have a good idea of where you stand, even if it's a tad under that's ok considering the small taper and tired legs.

T-Bird · 22-09-2023 12:55pm

Best of luck to everyone running the half marathon tomorrow.

witnessmenow · 22-09-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141990#Comment_121141990

I was pretty sore the week after racing the half I did a few weeks ago so I think maybe factor in what you'd like to get done next week too. I think your plan usually has a couple of track sessions early in the week, I don't think I would have been able for anything like that after racing the half.

I do understand the temptation though! If I can stomach more running after its all said and done I am looking forward to chasing a few PBs when I recover.

I was reading on reddit this mornings about a guy running his first marathon who "started tapering" (he didn't go into details on his training so I'm not sure if the tapering was following a plan or because he felt some pain after a 30k run) and between then and the marathon "smashed" a few lower KM PBs, but then didn't get on how he wanted in the marathon. I'm hyper cautious at this point, this close to the finish line I don't want to risk anything. I've even given up the idea of playing tennis til after the marathon!

MiniMonstera · 22-09-2023 7:56pm

Good luck everyone. I'm going to do the things that are in my control right now - prioritise sleep (heading to the leaba now), gear ready, and packed two gels. Banana for brekkie. Enjoy the half and mind your legs coz their tired 😆😃

MisterJinx · 22-09-2023 8:02pm

Best of luck tomorrow if you're racing. Enjoy the atmosphere, weather looks great and will be a super trial run

Kellygirl · 23-09-2023 9:24am

Best of luck to everybody racing today!

Seifer · 24-09-2023 3:56pm

I'm done running for this week so dropping my weekly update in early.

Short, easy runs in the lead up to the half marathon with a bit of a pace check on the Friday 3 km.

Race Day: What a morning to run a race! If we could get that for marathon day it'd be perfect. I decided I was going to go out at 4:45 km/min which meant for the first time I lined up nicely with one of the pacer groups and it sure makes things easier; almost feels like cheating 😝

Just enjoyed my time behind them as the km's ticked by. Big difference in the crowd between this and the Frank Duffy and there was a great buzz running through that section with the DJ each time; can't wait for that the whole way along the marathon now.

With about 3 km left I left the pacers behind to finish strong with a new PB of 1:38:42 and also a new 10 km PB in there somewhere too (this is very soft as I've never even time trialled it; Fingal was supposed to be where I set something respectable).

Everything felt good; definitely was more in the tank. Treated myself to a pair of Vaporfly's after the Frank Duffy so fun to actually get to run fast in them.

Physio tomorrow for a post-race rub down to loosen any tight spots and see how we're set for another 32 km next weekend.

Looking at Strava everyone seemed to have a great day so well done all!

MiniMonstera · 24-09-2023 9:14pm

@Seifer that's a great report, sounds like you had a fabulous day out!

I had a great day too 😃. Admittedly I was a bit annoyed when I saw the sun come out as it was forecast to be overcast and I didn't bring my sunglasses. I found parts of it difficult for that reason and had to stare at the ground a lot when there was no tree cover.

The temperature was cooler than last year thankfully, and for the first few kms my hands and fingers were actually quite cold, which was a bit annoying. Had to flex my fingers a lot. But that didn't last long at all. Got me thinking about hand gloves for the start of the marathon - a cheap pair that can be ditched once I've acclimatised. Some people were very heavily clothed, I don't know how they do it. I wore my 7 pocket Decathlon tight shorts and a singlet, couldn't have worn anything more. By the end of the race so many guys had their tops off - it really warmed up!

I set out wanting to beat my last year time of 2.14 and did it in 2.05, so I'm thrilled. I didn't want to kill myself like in the Frank Duffy 10 miler - I was definitely racing but not all out. When I got to 16km it struck me how fresh I felt, given that at more or less the same time frame I was wobbling through the Frank Duffy finish, feeling queasy and unwell. I felt amazing compared to that and it was a real psychological boost. I think I hit the 16km mark at 1.35 so if I wanted to try and come in under 2 hours I'd have to knock a full minute off each of the final 5kms. My brain just said no don't go for it, so I didn't. Who knows whether I'd even have been able to or not but I certainly felt fresh. So instead, I just slowly increased my pace for the last 5km, nothing too drastic, but it was nice picking a good few people off in the final stages. Definitely had a bit in the tank (which I was delighted about) but probably not enough for a 2 hour finish. I ran through the line with a smile on my face, something I never do, I usually look half dead and hit the deck 😆

I steered clear of any focus of pacers this time round. I went ahead of the 2.10 balloon and had no sight of the 2.00 for 95% of the course. So they just didn't feature. Works best for me, I think.

I took a Maurten gel in the pen and another at the half way point. I could've done with a third as I had a fair few belly rumbles in the last couple of kms. I'd only a banana for breakfast as I was stressing about toileting, and it left me wanting. Perhaps I'll have a bagel on marathon morning. I'm going to pack 9 gels too. Speaking of toileting, I thought in the final two km I'd need to go and the possibility of urgency was giving me anxiety but the feeling quickly went away. I pray it's no more eventful than that on race day. There'll just never be enough toilets on the day when urgency is involved so just have to cross fingers and hope for the best.

All in all it was a great race and as Seifer said the atmosphere was lovely. I felt so fabulous after. Quads are killing me today but I'll be grand tomorrow. Didn't get a great night sleep last night as there was some disturbance on our road (we think our elderly neighbiur died and there was a major medical response). So I'm hoping for a long restful sleep tonight. Feeling good 😀😀

Kellygirl · 24-09-2023 11:06pm

Great reports and racing Seifer and Minimonstera. Very well done to both of ye. MM, I take it you plan to practice with the bagels on long run days from now on? See how you feel etc? Maybe you have been already.

skyblue46 · 24-09-2023 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121109746#Comment_121109746

Concentrate on running relaxed, don't tense up the shoulders. Let the arms hang lower if needs be. Soreness in the shoulders or upper arms is generally a tension thing

MisterJinx · 25-09-2023 9:39am

WEEK 14

And just like that we are three quarters of the way through the plans . Well done to everyone on this week's running.

Firstly, well done again to all those who raced on Saturday. Running a Half Marathon is a great achievement in it's own right - it's something you should all feel very proud of. Keep the race reports coming. Unfortunately, there's no time for self-congratulation as we jump straight into another busy week. Try not to over-react to the HM result - a good performance is of course welcome, but doesn't mean it's time to slack off. Similarly, don't go into panic mode if things went a touch pear-shaped - continue to trust the plan. That should be it for the racing now for the vast majority of you, all eyes on DCM from here on in! We have 2 big weeks coming up again before we reach the taper.

Regarding pacing start slow - we will spend the next five weeks hammering you with this message. And I make no apologies for that - fail to heed this advice and you will be in for a very, very uncomfortable few hours on the 29th of October, DCM is not a race that you can go out fast on.

With all our build up races now behind us, thoughts are inevitably turning towards DCM targets. So, I'm interested to see what everyone is thinking. Please do give the reasoning behind what you've come up with as a target time. Below I'll post some references which I came across in previous years threads which are good food for thought

Best of luck with the week ahead! 😊

MisterJinx · 25-09-2023 10:15am

Quoting from an older post in a Novices thread that I found very useful and informative in this interesting article.

This guy did a study of mid-level runners half marathon times in comparison to their full marathon times, where the HM was run 6-8 weeks prior to the full and came to the conclusion that mid-level runners should expect their full marathon time to be 55 secs/mile slower than their HM time (35 seconds/km).

The baseline conclusion that can be drawn is that a mid level runner should expect their marathon pace to be approximately 55 seconds slower than their half marathon pace. The fact that I focused on the 3:40 – 4:20 marathoner might cause some to suggest that the runners in this study were probably not adequately prepared to run the full marathon. However, I used the most relevant set of data I could find: real runners, running real races with actual results.

He includes a table (about three quarters of the way into the article) which shows a number of HM times (1:44-1:58) with the corresponding Project Marathon time based on his research, and the Projected Marathon time based on McMillan.

It may seem very conservative and maybe it is too conservative however at about this time I expect that you have been checking out online calculators to get an idea of your race time. In general and most specifically for Novice marathon runners the online calculators are very optimistic.

Another quote from the article, which we can't emphasis enough

In the middle of a marathon when you might realize you went out too fast it’s very tough to then just adjust to a new, more reasonable pace. The damage is already done and you will end up running slower, much slower. If you significantly outrun your potential during the early miles, it’s very difficult to avoid a painfully slow experience during the final miles. As far as your ending time is concerned, the seconds saved running too fast at the beginning of a race, will not be enough to balance out the eventual slow down at the end.

He concludes by saying this

There were 15% of the runners in my research who had marathon times equal to, or better than the projections from calculators. You might be one of those 15% but then again, you might be in the bottom 15% and should add ninety seconds to your pace.

Now for reference and why this resonated with me is that last year my HM time would have given me, on some of those online calculators, anything from a 3.07 to 3.10 Marathon. I finished in 3.25, exactly 36 seconds/km slower than my HM pace. So in this data set of 1 the above seems to ring true. I also can't agree more with the point about running the beginning of the race too fast. In a marathon you cannot bank time like you might be able to in other races, it's just too long and as Novices we don't have the skill base of a really seasoned runner to know exactly when to pair back an effort and not put ourselves in a hole.

So are you thinking this is too slow to go out, that you think your times and fitness would get you better than this? If you are then I'll leave you with another couple of things to think about. First, Dublin is tougher in the first half as there are long drags and a couple of hills to navigate. Everyone needs to be conservative in the first half. Second, the best marathon times come from those who negative split (i.e. running a quicker second half of the race) and finally, after your conservative start and keeping yourself held back, you have plenty of time in the final 10K to bring back in your time, you will often hear that the marathon only starts in the final 10k, wouldn't you like to be fresh(!) for it.

One final word on times. Please do not get hung up on a finishing time, this is your first marathon, go out and execute a good race and enjoy it. Too many of us get hung up on times and what is a "good" marathon time. There is no "good" marathon time, finishing it is such an achievement, the time really doesn't matter. It's nice to know you reached an ambition however it's only you who decided on that time and everyone else, the 99% of people who have never run a marathon and the 1% who have, will think it's amazing no matter what time it is. What you do want is to go out, enjoy the day, finish it strong and come away happy, that is more important than any time goal.

MisterJinx · 25-09-2023 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151004#Comment_121151004

Great job well done, a very well executed race and I'm delighted it went so well for you. Wait till you see the crowds and buzz at DCM!

MisterJinx · 25-09-2023 10:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152428#Comment_121152428

Another really well executed race and I'm so delighted that you cross the line happy :-) You've really improved your times and as you can see yourself you are holding the races together so well now. You'll have a brill day at DCM. Also as Skyblue says, keep relaxed, I get tense too, especially when trying to hold a pace, so I shake out my arms regularly and I find this helps take the tension out and relaxes the shoulders and arms. Try it on your next long runs

witnessmenow · 25-09-2023 11:16am

Week 13

Planned: 8K | 13K | 8K | Rest | 8k @ MP | 32k | Cross

Actual: 8K | 13.5K | 8K | Rest | 8k @ MP | 32k | 50 min walk (4k)

~70k for the week

Got everything done.

Tuesday 13K was a bit fast pace wise but not awful on the hear rate side of things, it was absolutely horrible morning for running and I misjudged my timing to be back in time for school runs too so sped up a bit towards the end

Fridays MP was 20 seconds/km too fast, need to work on that.

I found the 32k fairly hard. It was a hilly route and I was definitely feeling it around the 27/28k mark, just looking at my strava here and you can even tell by my heart rate where I started finding it hard but was able to push through and finish it fairly strong. I know it won't be the same on the day for lots of different reasons but pretty sure I didn't have another 10k in me on Saturday anyways!

Great to see all the results coming in from the weekends half's, well done everyone! Definitely have some fomo (can it also be used for "feeling of missed out"!?) But there will be other races for me!

Target Time: 4:30

I put this as my place holder target time when I signed up and I think objectively it looks like it ended up being a good A goal for me... maybe!

Pros of why I think its probably good:

My half time I did at the end of August (2:04:XX) is the best indicator that I have that it is right (EDIT although that doesn't line up with the study that @MisterJinx just referenced, so maybe its in the cons column now :) ) HM Pace was 5:54/km, so +35s would be 6:29/km, 4:30 requires a 6:23/km pace
I picked a plan that I think suited me but with relatively high KM for my experience level (by the marathon I'll have ran 750KM in the block since I started the plan on the 24th of July, just over 1500km for the year in total)
I have been very consistent in following the plan, I haven't missed a run yet and for the vast majority I do run at an appropriate pace

So I don't really think from the runnings side of things I could have done much more.

Cons:

I have not lost the weight I hoped I would have by now so that definitely makes it more challenging. I think I gave myself too much of a free pass to eat whenever/whatever so that certainly could have went better.
I was hoping I'd feel a bit better towards the end of this weeks 32k

Not a pro or a con, but a difference in approach. There is a few people in the run group also aiming for a 4:30 and they generally run much quicker than me. It makes me feel like one of us is doing or planning something wrong and since there are multiples of them and one of me, and they are running for a lot longer than me that is hard to not feel like its me!

I probably run 2 times a week more often than them and my weekly KM would be higher and I subscribe to the easy running mantra, and I've personally experienced the benefits of a taper, for both going faster and covering additional distances on the day but it is hard shake feeling that people who are running closer to MP week in week out, while running a higher risk of injury, will surely be better able for it on the day.

I do get good comfort from seeing others on here with the same approach as me though!

EDIT: I'd also like to add I'm not hanging success or failure of the marathon on sub 4:30, its just the target, literally any finish time will be big achievement compared to where I was 16 months ago went I started a couch to 5k!

nullObjects · 25-09-2023 11:42am

Sorry for not posting in a couple of weeks. I've picked up some injuries so I'm out of the marathon. Managed to just about struggle through the HM but it was quite painful.

Thanks for the pointers and best of luck to everyone.

TheRef · 25-09-2023 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153742#Comment_121153742

This post from @MisterJinx is really important and you should read it multiple times over the next month.

I'll share how my numbers faired out as a novice from last year following the boards plan.

I set a goal of 4 hours, which is a pace of 5:41 min/km.

My pace in the Dublin half last year was 5:18 min/km and that was racing. Finish time of 1:51. The calculators suggested I could do a full in 3:51 (🤣)

In the marathon, I managed 4:11, so overall pace of 5:55min/km, which is 37secs/km slower than my half. Almost identical to what @MisterJinx saw. However, I think where we differed is he seemed to last strong through the race, where I faded badly in the last 3k.

With an overall goal pace of 5:41, at the 10k mark I was averaging 5:43. By halfway, that was down to 5:38, and at 30k it was 5:39. So, on paper, looking good. However, by Orwell, around the 30k mark, I was beginning to find it really hard. By 37k, my overall pace had dropped to 5:45 and by the end it was 5:55. The last 3k was a case of walk, run, walk.

Although I set out with a target time of 4 hours and came in 11 mins behind, I was really happy, but there was a slight bit of regret. I would have loved to have been able to run that last 3k through the crowds, enjoying the atmosphere and occasion. Instead I was wanted it to end. Maybe if I had been more conservative at the start, I wouldn't have had any regrets.

This year, I've set myself a target of 7 minutes slower than the calculators suggest, and will be starting out at a pace a lot slower than that.

DCM 2023 Mentored Novices Thread

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