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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 628 ✭✭✭Mr Disco


    a lot of this is incorrect at most SA can get is 15 points. So all teams on 15 points means points diff comes into play.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I'm a big fan of Gatland as a coach. But his success appears very dependent on those he is actually coaching. He combines exceptionally well with the Welsh psyche. There was a similar style of player/team at Wasps. Incredibly fit, direct and would run through a wall for their team and played a very direct style largely based on that work rate. His time with Ireland was far more patchy. Waikato couldn't wait to move him on after his time there was an absolute disaster.

    But he knows exactly what to say/do to get into the heads of the Welsh players. In this RWC, they have looked a completely different side for the most part to the one that we've seen play in the last couple of 6N tournaments. But that has always been the case over the last 10-15 years. They could be absolutely pedestrian one season and look like the best team in the NH the following season winning a GS/6N.

    Right now, they're looking very good value to make their third RWC semi final under Gatland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I'd be shocked if we made more than a few changes for Scotland. I've seen some proposed selections calling for 6-7 changes to be made with every area of the team being disrupted. There's not a hope. We're not qualified at this stage. Field a changed side and then get a silly moment of head contact leading to a red card and we're in massive trouble.

    I can see Sheehan being restored to the line up. Conan might get a start to get him up to speed but I wouldn't be certain of it. Then I'd say there might be a change where either Murray or Henshaw comes in to the team.

    Anything else is unlikely, I'd guess nor should they be trying to muck around with things now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Points difference only determines the top team in a 3 way tie. If SA put 35 points on Tonga then in your scenario Ireland and Scotland would be decided by H2H.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Excellent point, I hadn't realised that before now.

    2. Tournament Format

    ...

    3. Rankings at the completion of the pool phase

    At the completion of the pool phase, the Teams in a pool are ranked one through five based on their cumulative Match points, and identified respectively as winner, runner-up, third, fourth and fifth.

    If at the completion of the pool phase two or more Teams are level on Match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:

    1. The winner of the Match in which the two tied Teams have played each other shall be the higher ranked.
    2. The Team which has the best difference between points scored for and points scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
    3. The Team which has the best difference between tries scored for and tries scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
    4. The Team which has scored most points in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
    5. The Team which has scored most tries in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
    6. Should the tie be unresolved at the conclusion of steps 1 through 5, the rankings as per the updated. Official World Rugby World Rankings on October 14, 2019 will determine the higher ranked Team.

    For clarification, in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at criterion 1.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭MerlinSouthDub


    The max points South Africa can get is 15. If we get to 15 points and Scotland do too, then the three teams are level and I think it is decided by points difference?



  • Administrators Posts: 53,813 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If South Africa beat Tonga by 36 points more than what we beat Scotland then they'd go ahead on points. This is not beyond the realms of possibility, we beat Tonga by 43 points and we weren't particularly trying to run up a score.

    Scotland would need to absolutely smash Romania by 100+ points to have any real chance of going ahead of us on points though.

    Realistically, if it comes down to points diff at this stage we are safe, our only real risk is Scotland beating us by 8+ and I think that's very slim.


    Edit: I'm wrong. If we all end on 15 then we're out on H2H with Scotland, assuming SA turn around that points swing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Long story short, Scotland can still knock us out so we can’t afford to rotate. We need to go strong and beat them.

    And that should be very, very doable with a strong squad so long as we have our heads screwed on. They’ve beaten us just once in the last 10 years and haven’t beaten us by 8 or more in a meaningful game in over 20 years (the beat us by 10 in a warm-up game in 2007). The last time they scored 4 tries against us was back in 1999.

    Anything other than an Irish win would be a shock. A Scottish TBP win or a Scottish win that denies us the LBP would be a very big shock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Changes I see for Scotland maybe

    conan onto the bench along with mc Carthy, wouldn’t be surprised to see Henderson start though

    Sheehan starting

    maybe Henshaw in to start.

    possible that there might be a bit of a backrow shuffle but I don’t think so.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I could see Beirne getting a rest. He's played every minute of the three games so far. I think he's the only forward who's done so. I wouldn't be surprised to see Henderson start and I'd be shocked if Sheehan doesn't.

    The other ever presents are Aki, Lowe and Keenan. I can't really see any of those three not starting.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Moral of the story: Go out and beat Scotland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭joficeduns1


    Agreed that Beirne is probably in line for a rest, with Henderson/Baird/McCarthy all featuring against Scotland. Beirne was monstrous vs NZ last year on the tour so if all hopefully goes to plan he'll be a fresh thorn in their side for a QF.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    It really has to pi$$ of Scotland that they are in a group with the top 2 teams in the world, while the sh!tshows that are Wales and England stroll into the (probable) semifinals.

    as much as it pi$$es us off that we have to face NZ or France in a quarter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭sxt


    I think Henderson must start. If he continues his good form against Scotland, then he must be considered to replace James Ryan going forward, as Ryan's form is below par this tournament. Henderson is a better line out calling option also, which will be critical down the line



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    I sometimes wonder if some of the posters on here are actually watching the matches



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭sxt




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    I’d give him a 7. He runs the lineout so bears some responsibility for the early issues, but also deserves credit for sorting it out.

    He was quiet carrying but he often is, that’s not why he’s picked. SA targeted our rucks to slow them down and had some success with it, Ryan was probably the leader in hitting them and securing ball. SA only got 3 turnovers, Ryan was instrumental in keeping that number low.

    Henderson had a big impact when he came on but he’s nowhere near replacing Ryan as a starter and to claim so is quite telling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭This is it


    Your opinion changes like the weather, it's hard to take it seriously.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭sxt


    James ryan is working very hard at breakdown and working well in that department,but that's his job. but every other department of his game has been poor this tournament.. South Africa match for example. A couple of Terrible line out calling 5 metres out from try line( kelleher threw perfect throws so cannot be blamed) completely changed the dynamics of the game in a negative way. Dropping the ball in try scoring position, giving away a turnover penalty. No carrying threat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit




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  • Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭VayNiice


    Any news on how Cian Healys rehab is going?

    I know it would also require someone else to pick up an injury for him tk be called up but if we were to face the Boks again id feel a lot better with him back up Porter..



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭sxt


    I'd have to go 5. Those lineouts 5 metres from try line were the most match changing dynamics in the match. Real momentum shifting in the wrong way. Golden opportunites



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭Bogwoppit


    I had a read through the various press pieces rating the players, one of them had him at a 6 and a couple of them had him at 8. Most had him as 7/10.

    They all pretty much comment the same as I said in my previous comment so forgive me if I think your rating and your opinion on Ryan is only fit to spread on my tomatoes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    I don't think Ryan played well the last day either, he's a bit of a sacred cow on here at times. Management made the right call to take him off - it's not that outrageous an assertion that Henderson might replace him... I don't think it will happen, mind, but it wouldn't shock me either



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    he's a bit of a sacred cow on here

    For a sacred cow, any dips in form or any hint of under performance are usually well highlighted.

    Nienaber, Kolisi, Snyman and numerous others have all said the Irish breakdown was unplayable. Nienaber specifically said that they knew the Irish breakdown game would be ferocious but still they couldn't counter it. Ryan is a huge part of that and going by how we've played when he isn't on the pitch I'd say he's pretty integral to our dominance there. He's one of small number of players I question we can win the world cup without.

    Henderson coming into this kind of form right on time is amazing for Ireland. If Ryan were injured it's not nearly the blow it would have been - but I still think it would be a significant blow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,635 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Ryan going off in the European final in Aviva was a big part of why Leinster lost.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    A club game where he was replaced by ambling Jason Jenkins - not really relevant to the RWC.


    I'd rather Henderson coming off the bench if things are getting sticky, to be honest. Whatever about their respective forms, I think in this form his ability to up the intensity and his brand of leadership is really valuable, especially if Johnny is off before or shortly after his arrival.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    James Ryan has been Ireland's best second row and one of our most important players, for like two years now. Regained all the form that got him so hyped up in his early 20's and has surpassed that now if anything.

    Not allowed have a poor game apparently. Not that he even played poorly btw.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    "Not allowed to have a poor game NOT THAT HE DID"


    The impudence! The disrespect! The outrage!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,353 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    You're right. I overlooked the implications of all 3 being on 15 and all 3 having lost/beaten eachother.



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