Change to derogation

Water John · 25-09-2023 11:23pm

Turning a sod for reseeding in grassland, would happen only once in a while and could be seen a part of a whole carbon sequestration cycle. Tillage must aim to maintain ground cover, year round.

tractorporn · 25-09-2023 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157250#Comment_121157250

Sorry dont mean to derail this thread but I just looked up that Kerzna, it deserves a thread of its own. A perennial grain would be the ultimate game changer. Something like that is exactly where the research should be at but as you say only the farmer will gain so it won't be looked at.

Kevin O'Hanlon grew maize with peas but the peas nearly smothered the maize and the cobs didn't really fill. He chopped it all into the pit and will be feeding it soon I'd say.

Water John · 25-09-2023 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157327#Comment_121157327

That might be down to the balance of seeds. Wouldn't rule the mix out on the basis of one trial. Think a low level cover may be needed with maize as it grows upwards so late in the season.

roosterman71 · 25-09-2023 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157006#Comment_121157006

Something tells me there's more to that story than just spreading to get it out

epfff · 25-09-2023 11:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156955#Comment_121156955

Ifa have lost touch with the man on the ground.

The membership is made up of people that don't care for farming and are in it for discount on insurance/phone or something.

Government know this and want to keep it it place Incase another effective farm organisation (ICMSA springs to mind) takes control of the majority. They know farmers are not floating voters so basically f them just make it look ok in media to urban sympathisers

Water John · 26-09-2023 8:51am

Anyone with a bit of vision either doesn't get elected, eg Nigel Renaghan or don't even go for top positions eg Angus Woods, in the IFA. We can blame civil service, and rightly so at times, but they know the type of, not an inch, will be the usual response.

John_Rambo · 26-09-2023 9:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157381#Comment_121157381

In the pissing rain.

Say my name · 26-09-2023 9:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156994#Comment_121156994

It should be explained to everyone. Farmers and non farmers that that farmer in Cork was not in derogation.

Maybe it's a point that only derogation farmers looking at that realise.

Dero farmers have enough crap to put up with, without implications from non derogation farmers being heaped upon them.

A derogation farmer looking at that will think nothing to do with me.

Only thought is it's a bad vision for whatever that farmer came from be they cattle, pigs or what could possibly be in Cork anaerobic digestate.

K.G. · 26-09-2023 9:57am

That pitch isn't far from us.dont think there's any issue there it s just a fella spreading his slurry and a match happens to be on at the same time . To be fair to him there's 2 soccer pitchs over the ditch from him as well so if he had to avoid matches he d get nothing done.to be fair that club end up hosting alot of matches involving beara teams as they are a half way house for alot of teams.cork as a county is 2 and 1/2 hours long

blackdog1 · 26-09-2023 12:17pm

I see everyone giving out about derogation, when we should be putting pressure on the government to reduce the nitrates band back to 85kg per cow . We all knew Derogation was going to go but we can still have a profitable cow if we can bring the banding back to 85kg. If they are so worried about indoor farming put the banding way up after 8500 litres but up to 8500 litres is still a cow producing nearly 90% of her milk off grass.

Jack98 · 26-09-2023 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158586#Comment_121158586

Is the banding a European wide implementation or is it just in certain countries. Tbf if dero does go in 2026 85kg per cow at 170kgn/ha would be a lot more reasonable.

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159530#Comment_121159530

I could be wrong but I think the idea of banding came from Moorepark so I'm guessing it's only an Irish thing.

White Clover · 26-09-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157137#Comment_121157137

I heard McConologue come out with that statement at the ploughing that only phosphates comes from sewage and not Nitrates. It was distressing to hear this coming from the Minister for Agriculture.

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2023 3:34pm

Was at a meeting this morning about water quality in our area. It was organised by a few dairy farmers, just off their own back. This is a big dairy area and we have a big-ish river running thru it (the Mahon), but we're in the white area on the EPA's red/white map so likely to keep 250kg. I think the organising lads just want to make sure the area is not red on the next map.

They invited speakers from Waterford county council and Teagasc. It was a case of getting someone rather than being picky about who we could get.

It was the usual stuff about spreading the right product at the right time, etc. The only real new info was from the council man who explained just how much of the county is serviced by the river Mahon. The points where it's being tested are all in the top quality bracket with only two points (on either side of the local village!) being in the second-highest bracket.

I don't think our area is full of angels or anything, but if they're doing damage it's not enough to show up (yet).

I was also surprised to hear one of the Teagasc fellas state very matter-of-factly that ploughing (for tillage or reseeding grassland) is a major source of nitrogen leakage. I know plenty on here (and Twitter) have explained why that happens, but I never heard it acknowledged by the State before. The same guy referenced WW-2 in the UK as well, saying that the levels of high nitrates over there can be traced back to the large amount of ploughing that took place after the war.

The main thing I took from it is that there's only going to be more monitoring of water quality in the coming years. There was no mention of enforcement and catching out the fellas breaking the rules. But the level of awareness among the rest of us seems to be growing and in fairness the Teagasc people on the ground seem conscious of the effort farmers are making too.

Mooooo · 26-09-2023 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159646#Comment_121159646

No it's across Europe, there are 5 bands in France I believe, and they don't stop at 106kg

Say my name · 26-09-2023 5:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159749#Comment_121159749

Bend him over the knee and slaps of the ash plant till he acknowledges Nitrogen comes from human sewage.

Higher nitrate than cow manure even as a species we're on a par with pig manure.

He definitely had the same hymn sheet then as the local FF here.

Say my name · 26-09-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159762#Comment_121159762

I've been putting this point across for quite a while now. I haven't been told to shut up but the closest it came was from a private message on another forum from an arable group member who class themselves as all things green. They contacted me and said they were also a county council inspector for water. They proudly announced they haven't inspected any tillage farmers for nitrates only livestock farmers.

I knew what they were at so repeated the science back again of leaching from tillage. They weren't one bit impressed but I heard no more again.

There's a serious cabal in this country who don't want to hear nitrates and tillage mentioned together. As far as they're concerned they've built an image up in the last few years and this message contradicts what they've been putting out there. But they shouldn't have really built it up on a pedestal so high. To make it look silly when the real science and not the makey up stuff goes against the message.

I also had a mess around with soil samples done to me from the cabal too but I persevered and nearly got what I wanted eventually. I was assured the same thing would never happen again.

I never named anyone nor intend to. But this country sometimes..

Jack98 · 26-09-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160178#Comment_121160178

A bit of recognition of the leeching from tillage would be appreciated from the wider community so as not to drop all the blame on ruminant farming and letting tillage get off scot free in the eyes of the enviros as they see it as the silver bullet. How would one go about this without potentially throwing the tillage sector under the bus also is another question to be answered.

It is complete BS the constant rhetoric of tillage being the savior of livestock farming a sector barely able to survive being touted as your get out of jail free card and a sector that would only be viable in a fraction of the land base at which dairy, beef etc can be.

Say my name · 26-09-2023 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160228#Comment_121160228

I've been accused as anti tillage from within the community just for stating fact.

All you can do is just state facts and be prepared to back it up with further questioning.

Keep affirming we're all in this together and none is better than another. That'll wind some up. But go back to facts if more questions and statements come.

We are really all in this together but some don't see it that way. And people's health at the end of the day in the food we eat and water we drink can't be swept aside either for rhetoric which benefits no one.

Jack98 · 26-09-2023 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160355#Comment_121160355

If you’re a dairy farmers there is an awful lot of anti dairy sentiment from other sectors in farming let alone what you get from the general public and enviros. If they’re going to try make dairy the scapegoat you have to push back. Plenty lads pricking with bits of cattle doing a lot more damage than any dero farmer too.

Say my name · 26-09-2023 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160413#Comment_121160413

Agree and you're getting it totally.

Re the message before about throwing anyone under the bus. There is no bus to throw anyone under. We'll all want food so land will still be tilled and crops grown. But it's an aspect that needs to be included in the conversation. We've livestock getting the blame by the vegan enviros (the non vegans won't say boo) and we've communities where tillage is wall to wall now complaining and health affected by high nitrates in wells. (Google anywhere in the US or Canada. Prince Edward Island is microcosm to look into). (An Irish Nuffield scholar I believe went out to PEI recently as their scholarship investigating how to replicate potato growing there in this country. Not a thought in the head of nitrates implications.)

If it's included in the conversation, the discussion becomes more nuanced. The more nuanced it's more truthful and perhaps we won't be on the path that other countries went.

Birdnuts · 26-09-2023 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159762#Comment_121159762

On the water testing front, there seems to be confusion over the type of testing done and what government agency is doing it - ie. Biological testing is far more accurate in terms of catching ongoing water quality issues as its based on the presence/absence of mayfly, stonefly larvae etc. that are most sensitive to pollution. Chemical testing only gives you a brief snapshot of what is in a water column at that particular moment, so is not really usefull at all at measuring water quality trends in any particular river. I'm wondering what kind of testing Teagasc is doing?? does anybody here know???

Siamsa Sessions · 26-09-2023 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160953#Comment_121160953

The Teagasc guy said they do both biological and chemical tests. But they try to build up an overall picture of any area rather than having a rigid template for so many biological and so many chemical tests at fixed distances along any river.

Another test involves kicking along the gravel of a river bed and seeing what species subsequently emerge. Certain species will be scarce if nitrates or phosphates are above certain limits, while there’ll be more species present which can tolerate higher levels.

Apologies for my layman’s language. And I didn’t catch all the details that were being covered today so I might not be relaying an exact copy of what was said.