The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

Ardillaun · 26-09-2023 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149267#Comment_121149267

Reminded me of this golden moment:

https://youtu.be/55xPjGFWv9o?si=ZopcoIH6VJUiPky_

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 12:14am

There were loads here praising the referees performance and I strongly disagreed.

This is so biased, it shows very little of the South Africa fouls not called by the referee but there's so much here that it's more than enough to show how bad the referee was.

https://youtu.be/0RgLfplX_9I?si=FO-hA47pPR2-i0qo

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 12:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156580#Comment_121156580

Absolutely agree that the Irish front row is better. Hooker is close but the Irish props are way better. Disagree about the second row. All 3 AB locks are better than Henderson, if Barrett can stay on the field he has been one of the best in the world this season. And Rettallick in form is one of the best. Loose forwards, only Savea would make the Irish trio. Maybe Frizzel at his best.

Of the 6 halfbacks in the 2 squads, Smith is easily the best but Ireland has better depth. Mouaga hasn't really delivered at test level in a big match so Sexton gets the nod there. Agree on 12. Theres not much between Jordie and Bundee. The rest of the backline I think is in NZ's favour, partly due to pace.

As you say, it will be won up front and Ireland definitely have the edge there. Though I wouldn't be too confident on scrum dominance as the Irish scrum has been minced a few times recently. Overall Ireland are definitely favourites for a match with NZ.

ersatz · 27-09-2023 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161902#Comment_121161902

The vast majority of this is rubbish, there are some very marginal calls being identified here as something other than the ref letting the game go on. Many of the rolling away shudda been penalties are nothing of the sort. Guys end up on the wrong side in tackles and are compelled to make an effort to roll away, if they can't its a penalty, if they do and aren't obviously interfering with play then it would be insane to award a penalty every time, their mere presence on the wrong side is not a penalty. The video seems to indicate that it should always be a penalty or its bias. Mad, there would be a penalty at every ruck and no spectators.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 12:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161953#Comment_121161953

There's loads of erroneous errors in there as well.

I didn't even see what Bundee did at that maul until it was pointed out in that video. We are so lucky he got away with it.

Anyway I can't do things like that but you say marginal calls and I pointed out a few of them that were blown up, very marginal offside, if they were even offside, calls and not near the ball. The invisible Irish hand that touched the ball to give South Africa a lineout which at the end of the day after a penalty gave South Africa the chance to have that final maul.

There's enough big and obvious errors by the referee in that video to prove he was awful. And if I could do a video like that it'd be nearly twice as long after I added all the calls made that favoured South Africa.

And if you seen my post I clearly said his calls didn't favour one side or the other. It wasn't about that, he was just awful.

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 1:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161902#Comment_121161902

Great work Rassie. Keep it up.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 1:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161980#Comment_121161980

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Rassie was involved in the making of that. 😁

Thing is there's enough erroneous errors in that video to show how bad the referee was. And as I keep saying its a very biased video showing very little of the mistakes made where South Africa were fouling and got away with it or anything that he got wrong that favoured South Africa.

ersatz · 27-09-2023 2:13am

I doubt Rassie would suggest that Nche should cop a red card for stamping on VdF's hand when he was being held, or had just been held. I was freaking out seeing that as VdF looked to have injured his hand in his first tackle.

pickarooney · 27-09-2023 6:35am

This ref-bashing crap is absolutely pathetic.

Akrasia · 27-09-2023 7:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161960#Comment_121161960

Just stop. You could over analyse every single ruck and maul in any high intensity match and find some potential infringement by one or both teams.

Field east · 27-09-2023 7:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161995#Comment_121161995

I assume that all teams - especially the top ones know the refs ‘ likes and dislikes’ - what they will let go and not let go- and therefor ‘play the ref’. SA were better at this than Irl were. When one team wants to play ‘clean ‘ rugby and the opposition will play ‘as close to the edge’ as possible, the clean team is at a clear disadvantage.

in GAA terms some teams constantly throw the ball to another player as against hand passing it because the ref will more than likely call play back for a free. Some teams exploit this to the n th degree.

stephen_n · 27-09-2023 8:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161995#Comment_121161995

Yeah and half of them are bollox too. Like the one they’re calling for a neck roll by JGP on Etzebeth. Which wasn’t actually a neck roll and Etzebeth was penalized for not releasing in the tackle. So even if it had been a neck roll, it was already a penalty to Ireland, so it would have made no difference.

Micro analyzing a referees performance using slow motion footage is complete and utter horse sh1t. The referee has one perspective, can see one area at a time. Not multiple camera angles in slow motion.

It’s interesting that they didn’t highlight Kitshoff’s illegal actions at pretty much every ruck he was involved in.

I thought that BOK was running a little scared of Rassie at times on Saturday. Though he got most of the big calls right and was consistent in his interpretations. Which is about all you can ask for from a ref, in such s dynamic and physical encounter.

ionadnapokot · 27-09-2023 9:50am

Keenan with yet another brilliant performance. If he could have got to the line here it would have been a sensational try from Ireland. Maybe even the best Irish RWC try!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby-world-cup/2023/0926/1407409-keenan-reveals-nerves-ahead-of-boks-battle/

Jacovs · 27-09-2023 10:01am

Here's a story, now that I see that photo of PSdT on the ground.

His family/parents own the farm Kloovenburg which is about an hour's drive from where I am in Cape Town. My company did some work for them twice before. About 2 weeks ago his youngest brother called me to come out to them and quote on some stuff they want done. I was there on thursday and had a look. Saturday evening I was watching the game with my business partner, who is also mad into his rugby. I think there was about 2 or 3 times during the game where PSdT made mistakes where I looked at my partner and told him their quote has just gone up by 5%.

Right now im busy working on that quote...

lawrencesummers · 27-09-2023 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161943#Comment_121161943

Retallick and whitelock would be fine if they were in a great pack but they are not and they are being asked to do to much.

pickarooney · 27-09-2023 10:29am

With De Groot and Lomax, Cane and Frizell in the pack, I dont really see any weaknesses in NZ's front 8 to be honest. Their replacements are not fantastic, but then again we have Dave Kilcoyne

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 10:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162782#Comment_121162782

I assume that you are being sarcastic because to me; De Groot, Lomax and Cane starting for the ABs shows just how weak their pack is.

sydthebeat · 27-09-2023 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162782#Comment_121162782

New Zealand have the weakest front row of all the top 4 favs for the competition. There very little point of different between theyre first choice props and reserves, a which is not a good place to be. De Groot, Lomax, Newell, Williams, lualala and tu'ungafasi are all decent players but none of them strike fear into any of their opposition. None of them are destructive scrummagers either. Codie Taylor is the best of their front row option, Coles is past it and Taukei’aho is for the future.

Thats where we can get at the ABs, heavy carrying and set piece.

Obviously the slower we make their ball in defense the more impotent that very very good backline will be. So if we do end up playing NZ i expect us to go in as favourites and i expect, if we play at our best, we can beat them.

Buer · 27-09-2023 11:31am

If we end up facing one another, I would put us against NZ as probably 65/35 in our favour right now....maybe less. It really depends on whether NZ turn up on the day and I'd imagine they will. There's an incredible recency bias at play with how we see things. NZ are regularly being spoken of as not a patch on the team they once were but only 2 months ago, everyone was saying that NZ were back as possible favourites for the tournament (and the bookies had them there too) after they obliterated Argentina and comfortably beat a very strong SA 23 (probably stronger than the one from the weekend).

Whilst we now have no fear of them, they have never feared us nor will they if we face them.

I think the series win last year was an absolutely massive moment for the Irish squad psychologically. We've gone on to be a better and more confident team since then but NZ showed more ability to break us down than any other team in the last 2 years regardless of their form. There are only a handful of occasions that we've conceded more than one try in a game over the last couple of years:

France in Paris in 2022 - 2 tries
Italy in Rome in 2023 - 2 tries
Italy in Dublin in August (significantly weakened team) - 2 tries
Fiji in Dublin in 2022 (significantly weakened team) - 2 tries
South Africa in Dublin in 2022 - 2 tries
NZ in Dublin in 2021 - 2 tries
NZ in Auckland in 2022 - 6 tries
NZ in Dunedin in 2022 - 2 tries
NZ in Wellington in 2022 - 3 tries

But they didn't score in that final 20 minute period in Wellington and since then, our defence has largely been incredible. We've conceded 18 tries in 14 subsequent tests. Hopefully that carries over into any future games against NZ as they certainly have an uncanny ability to score tries against us.

I don't think they'll be able to stop us scoring but we need to be at the top of our game defensively to keep them at bay as France saw too.

Clegg · 27-09-2023 11:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162984#Comment_121162984

I'd go further and say New Zealand's entire front 5 is the weakest of the favourites. Whitelock and Retallick are two all time great second rows, but neither is the player they were even in the 2019 World Cup. And back then they weren't as good as their 2015 form either. Scott Barrett is a grub and entirely flaky.

They're still very good rugby players and they obviously win the most recent Rugby Championship. They must be respected. But we saw Ryan and Beirne and the rest of the pack get the better of them last year. I'm confident they can do it again.

thomas 123 · 27-09-2023 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161902#Comment_121161902

Interesting analysis - I agree there was questionable engagements from both sides , it was like the ref and especially the TMO was advised let a lot of stuff slip - a lot of cheap shots on players, late contact and obstruction. I dont think I have seen a game in the last 10 years with so little TMO involvement.

Thud · 27-09-2023 12:52pm

There has been noticeably less TMO involvement in the RWC games, assume its some directive to let games flow

27-09-2023 12:52pm

It's weird that we're likely facing a Joe Schmidt coached New Zealand in the quarter final of the World Cup and I'm not completely **** the bed.

We could just as easily lose that game as we could have lost Saturdays. We're likely talking about knife edge results and ultra fine margins.

But we do have reason to have confidence going into the game. As will the AB's and ultimately the result will favor the team whose confidence was most justified wand at the moment that look like ours.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162916#Comment_121162916

I agree with De Groot and Cane but not about Lomax.

Cane fell off a cliff about three years ago, before then he was a great one.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163500#Comment_121163500

Yeah, that was a big part of it but the referee made some very strange decisions which he basically said were definitive and he was wrong on them.

I don't have the technology to do good videos so this is taken off the TV on my phone.

This is another huge miss by the referee, it's right before the drop goal attempt late in the game. You'll see that Hanson was taken out, should have been a penalty and I'd say a yellow card and there's no way a referee should miss that.

https://streamable.com/2jou8o

The worst one of all was Bundee collapsing the mall right at the end of the game, now he was on the wrong side but the sideline official didn't see it and the TMO never got involved thankfully. 😁

thomas 123 · 27-09-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163716#Comment_121163716

I mean it worked the game was great to watch but the inconsistency grates me - thinking of Englands stewarts red against us - i wonder what he would have got in that game.

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163598#Comment_121163598

Wrong. Cane was never a great. Even before he broke his neck, he was very good at best. But he has never been at the level required to be a regular starting ABs 7, let alone captain. Unless the ABs pull off a miracle and win the whole thing, he'll be a Taine Randall.

De Groot and Lomax are young enough that they could get a lot better and by the next RWC, they might be a strength. At the moment they're a weak point.

pickarooney · 27-09-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163211#Comment_121163211

Scott Barrett is one of the form locks in world rugby and will probably captain NZ from next year. He has his disciplinary issues but nothing that can't be sorted out. The starting props are very solid players and Cane is the most underrated back row around. The campaign against him is reminiscent of the crap thrown towards Michael Hooper his entire career.

molloyjh · 27-09-2023 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161902#Comment_121161902

That account is almost solely about picking apart refereeing performances to a ridiculous level.

Rugby is a complicated sport with lots happening all at one time. Referees are not perfect. They’ll make mistakes. They also cannot, by pure fact of nature, see absolutely everything all of the time. But beyond that, referees are also given leeway to interpret whether they feel like incidents of foul play are worth blowing up for. That’s because World Rugby (and anyone who thinks about this) knows that if you blow up for every last offence the game would never get going. If it doesn’t have a bearing on play then refs can choose to let it go. This leads to a better spectacle, which is why we all watch it in the end.

The Aki incident at the maul for example is absolutely far from clear cut. He drove up into that maul, so how he can be judged to have brought it down (in real time especially) is beyond me. He grabbed the SA leg all right, but there’s feck all sign of a lift. And that’s in slo mo. The ref doesn’t have the benefit of that, again by pure fact of nature.

I do think O’Keefe let a lot go. And I’d have preferred a ref who was maybe a bit tighter on things. Others have a different opinion and love how he let the game flow. Right there sums up the almost impossible job a ref has. Ping everything and it’s unwatchable, ping nothing and he’s not doing his job, find a middle ground somewhere and it isn’t the same middle ground as some random and anonymous social media crank. It’s in many ways a no win situation. As spectators we just need to learn to let a lot of that stuff go unless it’s really affecting a game (I’m looking at you Carley!). Because there is no hard and fast right way to do it.

Clegg · 27-09-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164976#Comment_121164976

I don't think any of them are bad players. Ours are better as are France's.

The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

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