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Child Item

Creches closing for 3 days from today

Pat201

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2023/0926/1407342-creche-owner-shannon/

Just opening a discussion to see what peoples opinions are on creches closing over funding.

I'm not really aware of all the issues but I do not really understand the issue with funding being a problem. In my area of Kildare , Creche fees are at 1100-1300 a month and only full time is being offered. Creches are impossible to get due to such high demands so you would imagine that there would be good profit being made at moment but not according to this report. Is the Overheads so high in creche industry that 1100 per child cannot cover insurance and staff wages ?

I have also noticed that Childcare at home seems to becoming a hindrance to system. A lot of ex Creche workers are now advertising to take care of kids in their home at quite high prices. For instance a person may have 3 kids at 10 per hour for an entire day. If they did a 8 hour day that means that they will pull in 240 euros for the day. After doing that 5 days a week for a year that would mean a total gross wage of 62 400. They are supposed to then do their own taxes but you can definitely see why this would be way more appealing than working in a creche that may offer a job at ~ 35k.

Anyone more knowledgeable about what is going wrong with the sector at the moment ?

Pat

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CPTM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162632#Comment_121162632

I'm not sure we need to pay much more tax if we're already making a surplus of about 6 billion though?

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162714#Comment_121162714

A temporary surplus based on multi nationals, were you around 2000-2007? Not a great idea to increase spending based on one off taxation. Aside from all that there are a lot of hands out looking fort he 6bn, not least housing.

RoboRat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162632#Comment_121162632

Just did some numbers to see how it would pan out:

Average pay in Ireland is around €45k (according to the CSO)

Therefore 2 parents on the average salary are taking in €90k p/a

Tax taken from a 2-parent family earning €90k is €19,044

If one parent stopped working, the tax take would be €6,747 (tax credits passed to the spouse)

The difference in tax take is €12,297 (that's excluding indirect taxes which would also take a hit due to tightening the purse strings)

The average married family has 2.09 children (let’s exclude the 0.9). Therefore, the children’s allowance for 2 kids is €280 p/m or €3,360 p/a

The tax difference added to the children’s allowance is €15,657 p/a, or €1,304.75 monthly

The government is already funding the ECCE scheme so there is a cost there already.

I would guess that when everything is added up, it works out less.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162747#Comment_121162747

You are assuming one parent stops working, they don't, they pay for childcare or try to somehow manage.

tommythecat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162702#Comment_121162702

This was how it was with our first child but since the fee freezes etc now they just have one rate. So with all these government aids we still haven't seen a huge drop in fees for our second child.

CPTM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162729#Comment_121162729

Yes, and I would have to agree with you to a certain point because I did live through that era. But I would also say that the "good" times see plenty of improvements that wouldn't have been possible during times of recession. Announcing free GP care this year for an additional 500,000 people would be one example. The government themselves have already started to pay 25% of the creche fees through the subsidy grant. There are other give-aways recently you're probably already aware of. It's not uncommon to spend the money during good times.

I would also argue that during the last "good" time (before the recession) there were give-aways like free university funding (or close to it) which we somehow managed to maintain even during the recession itself. And others that, fair enough, we needed to reign in a bit. That would all be normal and if a recession hits, yes - we'd have to look at this like anything else and see what's feasible.

Yes housing is a priority. I can't argue with that - it literally effects everyone and is probably more important than the childcare issue.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162096#Comment_121162096

Okay if it's exploitation to pay a person from a poorer country double an average salary in their country, enabling them to take care of family back home, then it's exploitation.

In such case you are all out of options so stop complaining about paying the going rate for childcare.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162944#Comment_121162944

We should do this for picking fruit and whatever your job is too kowloonkev. Alas all our problems are solved.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162944#Comment_121162944

Will the worker be living in their home country or this country? Because minimum wage in Ireland is not enough to live on here and support a family elsewhere.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162971#Comment_121162971

It's already being done in agriculture but unfortunately it's not being regulated. I'm talking about a government run scheme.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162990#Comment_121162990

This is not a way to solve our problem long term or likely even short term.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162979#Comment_121162979

The way it works in HK is that the nanny comes alone. Often they are single ladies with children who need to support their kids education etc but a lot of them have adult children or many other situations. That's the reality. They're not getting work at home but also they can earn multiples of what they could earn at home in HK. They can even save up to buy property at home which is something that could never happen if they stayed there. That's why they make such a difficult decision to leave for a few years.

In HK they live with the family whose kids they are minding and get free food. Food is not any cheaper in HK than Ireland.

Actually in Ireland it would be a lot easier to accommodate them in the employer's house since the majority of house in Ireland are mansions compared to HK.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163055#Comment_121163055

Maybe it works in HK, but we have decided to not go down the exploitation route in Ireland.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163055#Comment_121163055

So straight up exploitation.

kowloonkev

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163009#Comment_121163009

Yeah probably not, as I said. I'm just showing how it is solved in another place. It would be good if we had any other ideas in Ireland though apart from more government handouts

Pat201

Where do we draw the line though ? More Goverment subsidies , Higher Fees, Less creches that are impossible to get into .

It basically getting to a point where both parents cannot work if they have kids

witchgirl26

I was listening to a few creche owners talking about this yesterday. So one of the huge issues was that they had to agree to a fee freeze in August 2021 without knowing how much they would get from Core funding. So they were essentially gambling blind. Core funding gives €69 per week per child in the creche. Consider how much your own personal bills for food and electricity have gone up since that timeframe & tell me that it hasn't affected you. There has been no increase in this. For the ECCE rates it currently sits at €64.50 per child per week. This has increased from €52 in 2010 when it was started. So only €12.50 in 13 years. That's not even a euro a year! Additionally it came out that ECCE only facilities are not liable for rates for the most part whereas full time creches are which increases their costs. An example one owner gave was that she froze her fees in August 2021 to get the core funding. A creche could open across the road from her, set the fees at whatever they like and sign up to core funding today. There is no max limit to fees to obtain the core funding so the new creche could be getting any amount extra per child to the established creche with the established one being able to do nothing. It's not well thought through.

I'm a parent paying creche fees for the past 3 years. They are expensive, no doubt. But at the end of the day these people are looking after the most precious thing in my life so I would prefer them to have qualifications and more than a 6 week course and be properly paid. When you think about it, it's a public service which is being provided by the private sector. The more the current way continues, the more creches are going to go out of business as they can't afford to keep up with all the regulations, the costs and have enough to actually pay the staff. In fact the creche I'm in has closed their facility for older children in afterschool as it was starting to cost them money to operate it. Not ideal for parents as they may still need it but if they hadn't, from talking to the owner, it would have meant closing rooms for the younger ones.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163717#Comment_121163717

The ECCE fees should be increased alright you would think. For the core funding, could the creches not just opt out and then they would not need to adhere to all the nasty requirements?

[Deleted User]

To those complaining about paying €1,000 a month for creche fees. That works out at €47 a day for 51 weeks a year (closed at Christmas).

If your child attends for 10 hours that is €4.70 an hour you are paying.

You wouldn't get a babysitter on a Friday night for €4.70 an hour.

It's actually very reasonably priced.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160035#Comment_121160035

Yet another thing wrong with this kip - billions wasted on certain things but can't be arsed trying to help out the people funding it through their taxes.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163903#Comment_121163903

Parent A on €100,000 a year, and Parent B on €30,000 a year.

Parent B pays far far less tax than Parent A.

Should each get the same subsidy?

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163935#Comment_121163935

Sweden means test it and you have different rates, all of which are miles below what we have here

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163962#Comment_121163962

So Parent B paying far less tax will get a higher subsidy, and Parent A pays full whack and also a contribution towards Parent B's creche fees?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163407#Comment_121163407

Was it not the case many years ago that both parents didn't work, one stayed home to mind the kids? That isn't a bad thing. It certainly beats 2 bleary eyed parents dropping kids to creche at 8am to collect at 6pm, put them to bed at 7pm and barely see their children Monday to Friday.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163988#Comment_121163988

Here in the Netherlands the more you earn then the less you get back. So someone on minimum wage gets almost the whole fee back, which enables them to work. Someone earning a decent wage gets a lot less back.

As someone earning a decent wage its a system i agree with as it keeps low paid workers in the workforce and doesn't overly subsidize the wealthy

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163988#Comment_121163988

You already have a massive amount of parents who don't bother working in their entire lives receiving free houses, medical cards, child allowance, dole etc. Surely helping struggling working people isn't unreasonable when this is going on

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164016#Comment_121164016

It sounds logical, but does Netherlands have a system like Ireland where a flat rate of child benefit is paid to all parents regardless of means or income? I don't see how Ireland can have a system like you describe while also handing out €140 per child each month to every parent in the country.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164043#Comment_121164043

Yes, has the same system, although its less money.

Part time work is also a lot more common here so most people i know only have their children in daycare 3 days a week.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164029#Comment_121164029

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but if parents are struggling that much financially it is quite possible that one is better off not working if they do the maths.

No creche fee = €12k a year

Transfer standard rate band = €1,800

Transfer personal tax credit = €1,775

Home carer tax credit = €1,700

There's up €17,275 available to a married couple, where one earns more than €49,000 and the other parent chooses to stop working.

Add in the ability to earn up to €15k tax free from minding other children (they'd lose the home carer credit but the total rises to €30,575).

What salary does the parent need to earn to receive €30k net a year...

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163988#Comment_121163988

Well it is Ireland, so it would absolutely work that way. Services received are inversely proportional to the amount you pay towards them. Unemployed for the last 6 months? No xmas bonus. Unemployed for years? You get the xmas bonus.