The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

sydthebeat · 27-09-2023 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164976#Comment_121164976

strange comparison

michael hooper has long been lauded as one of the best australian players ever. Hes twice nominated world player of the year, 6 years apart. Hes 4 time australian rugby player of the year, 2 more than any other player ever, again, 8 years between his first and last (2013 to 2021) so his talents have been recognised from a long way out. Anyone whos ever underrated Michael Hooper has been answered over and over and over again.

Same Cane is a different kettle of fish altogether. Yes he gets jip for being "mc caw-lite" and get a bit of a raw deal been seen as Mccaws successor, but for personal accolades for individual performances hes not really recognised as one of the worlds best. His single personal accolade is All Blacks POTY in 2020. Now, of course any player with 90 all black caps is not a bad player, and yes he might be underrated by many, but he will not go down as one of the worlds best, and it is easily arguable that currently he doesnt deserve to be in the best starting AB 15 on current form.

A back row of Frizzell, Saveau and Jacobson or Frizzell / Jacobsen, papalii, Saveau is seen by many to be more mobile, impactful and innovative than a back row with Cane in at 7.

Saveau is ABs best 7, but he also happens to be their best 8 as well.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165169#Comment_121165169

Well he blew up for a very minimal offside, if it even was offside, against Ireland which wasn't near the ball or affecting play.

Did you see the video I put up where Hansen was completely taken out? And that happened where he was looking because it was right beside the ball carrier.

There was no consistency, loads of blatant stuff right in front of him that he let go and loads of not so serious stuff that he called.

I said all of this right after the game. I didn't wait for that video to bring it up. A friend shared that with me and when I put it up I said it was completely biased to South Africa.

As I said I don't have the knowledge or tech to do up a video, but if I had I'd have bundles of calls that went against Ireland. A huge one was the phantom Irish hand that touched the ball to give South Africa a lineout and that led from there to a penalty to them being deep in our 22. There was no Irish hand or any body part that touched the ball. How he decided that bewilders me.

It's was a horrendous refereeing performance. You won't see me on here much complaining about referee performances.

irelandrover · 27-09-2023 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165596#Comment_121165596

The tmo called the ball into touch. The ref checked it with him. I'm not sure what else you want from a ref in that situation. So your major mistake against the ref is a call he checked with the tmo and was told that it came off an Irish hand.

The fact that hardly anyone is talking about the ref after the game is a sign he did a good job.

If you find yourself on the same side as a TAS video then you really need to check your priorities in life. It is the most pathetic bitter YouTube chanel that exists.

If you find yourself giving out about the ref immediately after a game like that where your team wins then you really need to see if sports is for you as you clearly get no enjoyment from it.

ionadnapokot · 27-09-2023 6:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162782#Comment_121162782

Ireland targeted the NZ props in the loose in 21' and 22'. I'm sure they will do exactly the same.

But as you rightly point out - Kilcoyne!

Porters 75 minutes v SA was unbelievable considering he was propping against Malherbe for 62 mins. And he is probably the best TH in the world.

And it's only 2 years since he has moved back to LH!!!

He played the full 80 against Scotland in this years 6N v Fagerson 53'(Berghan).

I think he MUST only do 40-45mins MAX v Scotland. He's probably going to have to do 3 consecutive weeks of 70+mins if Ireland are to get to a Final.

Porter 75'mins v England 2023' 6N - Eng Props Sinkler 67'(Cole)

Porter 73' v Fra 2022 6N - Fra Props Antonio 55'(Bamba)

Porter 76' v NZ 2021 - NZ Props Moody 53'(Tu'inukuafe), Laulala 53' (Lomax)

Porter 80mins v NZ 2022 1st Test - NZ props Bower 54'(Tu'inukuafe), Tu'ungafasi 54' (Ta'avao)

Porter 65' v NZ 2nd Test - NZ props Bower 64'*(Ross*), Tu'ungafasi* (Ta'avao 31'*RC)

Porter 69'*YC v NZ 3rd Test - NZ props Bower 54'(Tu'inukuafe), Tu'ungafasi 54' (Ta'avao)

stephen_n · 27-09-2023 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165708#Comment_121165708

Unless we get Healy back, we need him to play 70+ every game. Kilcoynes selection still baffles me.

ersatz · 27-09-2023 6:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165542#Comment_121165542

I'm not a huge fan of Cane, he never struck me as a great captain and he is industrious but less than eye catching in general play. It's interesting to me that under his leadership the ABs have gotten more yellows than their opponents time and again, maybe harsh to put that on him but he sometimes leads by example in that department. All that said I thought he was on e of NZ's best performers against France.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165684#Comment_121165684

I never knew anything about the channel until that video was shared with me. Some of the stuff they point out is borderline and things that shouldn't be called but there's plenty of blatant infringements in it that weren't called and immediately afterwards penalties given the other team.

I'm not calling this one-sided refereeing and I've made that clear since my first post about it right after the match.

It's just a horrendous refereeing performance. As I said I just put up one because I don't have the know how or equipment to put up a good one. It was a blatant illegal block on Hansen right in front of the ball carrier and it wasn't called. I only watched the last six or seven minutes of the game again and I was looking for the offside I've mentioned a couple of times but didn't find it so it must be a little earlier. I found the Hansen one and it's so blatant that it has to be called and in my opinion it's a yellow card as well. No excuse for not calling that.

So I said when I put up that video that it was totally biased but that first mean it's all wrong and its not, there is loads of stuff right in front of his nose that he doesn't call and loads of less serious stuff that he does call.

No consistency, which to me is the most critical thing, loads of missed serious infringements and lots of bad calls too. That all adds up to a horrendous refereeing performance.

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 7:35pm

@eagle eye Most people are saying BOK had a good game as a ref. Irish, South African and neutrals. Yet you say it was horrendous. I think the problem is you.

I agree that the block on Hansen should have been a penalty. The TMO let him down there. What was the result of that non-call? Also thought Hansen was blocked for the Bok try but the TMO checked that. Is that on BOK?

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165958#Comment_121165958

I said it right after the game. I'm a qualified referee, pretty much retired now although I still do the odd game when they are really stuck.

I'm not near the standard of international both in knowledge of the rules and athletically. I still see things when I'm watching games though. That performance was as bad as I've seen at international level.

I don't care what anybody else thinks, I'm entitled to my opinion. I think people need to look at the game again if they didn't notice how bad the refereeing performance was.

Hermy · 27-09-2023 8:08pm

Being entitled to an opinion does not validate that opinion.

joseywhales · 27-09-2023 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166129#Comment_121166129

Sure but surely the problem would be his opinion and not him?

I don't think he claimed that others validate his opinion, in fact he said he doesn't care if his opinion is validated or not.

And even if his opinion was not validated he can still express it.

molloyjh · 27-09-2023 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166055#Comment_121166055

If you don’t care what anybody else thinks then you are 100% categorically in the wrong place. This is a discussion forum, not a soap box.

fitz · 27-09-2023 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165958#Comment_121165958

Yeah, I'd be more critical of the TMO than BOK. He reffed how he refs. Which I think is a bit loose, as @molloyjh was saying above.

I thought the TMO was asked to check the pass for the SA try, but he should have picked up on the blocking imo, and should absolutely have flagged the late shoulder charge in the back on Hansen under the SA sticks towards the end, and DDA's torpedo clean out on Ringrose in the first half.

Burkie1203 · 27-09-2023 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160351#Comment_121160351

Awec has been kidnapped. Its the only logical thing to think.....

Fionn1952 · 27-09-2023 8:45pm

If you're ever coming down on the side of f*cking TAS analysis of a refereeing performance, you should probably have a long, hard look in the mirror.

Fella is an absolute joke.

CMcsporty · 27-09-2023 9:01pm

Bundees break

https://x.com/brettruganalyst/status/1707109763983585741?s=46&t=LZNAt8uQdNSsqynXTsT0dw

Are his turnover stats correct? Down as zero. Do they only count turnover penalties?

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2023/teams/ireland/player/45276

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166194#Comment_121166194

I'm basically saying I'm entitled to my opinion and it's an educated opinion.

There are people throwing insults at me, not that it affects me, but I'd be guessing that the majority of them, if not them all, haven't a clue what they are talking about. They just follow the thoughts of somebody they think knows everything about the game.

I've listened to players talking during matches and after games in studios talking about infringements and a lot of them don't know what they are talking about. They really need to take and pass a refereeing course to fully understand the rules.

I even learned something in the game the other day. The block down that went out in goal. I honestly have never come across that before. When he said five metre scrum attacking team I thought that can't be right. It's just too much of an advantage to gain from a skilful defensive play.

Like it does make sense going strictly by the book but there's normally different sets of rules for those type of situations, just like the block down isn't deemed as a knock on.

I think in that situation if it happened in a game I was officiating I'd have given a goal line drop out. That's simply because I didn't know. I presume he made the right call on it. Strictly by the book it's correct. I don't think it's addressed anywhere though or if it is it's very new.

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166055#Comment_121166055

Absolutely you're entitled to your opinion. Its interesting that your opinion is massively in the minority don't you think?

You're a qualified ref. Great. Thank you for your service. And I mean that. Game needs volunteers like yourself. But surely then you understand how difficult the sport is to referee? You never missed anything or let little things go to keep the match moving? I'm a qualified ref in a different sport. Reffed a national level and when I watch international matches I may disagree with some some calls but I'm not sanctimonious enough to spout off about it being an horrendous performance or put up some BS video critiquing the ref.

I'm in a WhatsApp group with a some mates back home that includes guys who played NPC and Super Rugby and one guy who reffed NPC. Everyone thought BOK had a decent game. Some are saying he could be in the running for the final. The ABs won't be there, so maybe.

molloyjh · 27-09-2023 10:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166760#Comment_121166760

I’ve seen nobody throw insults at you. I’ve seen a few, myself included, throw insults as TAS, but that’s completely warranted. Accounts like that one are just bad for the game.

Are you sure you’re not taking yourself and your opinion too seriously? For example, you’re a qualified ref and so have an educated opinion. But some players giving there’s are, according to you, wrong and don’t know what they’re talking about. They don’t have an educated opinion, no? Is the fact that their opinion is different from yours what is driving that judgement and, far more than anything directed at you here, abuse?

You've been pretty confrontational on stuff here. Lines like “I don’t care what others think” aren’t exactly great on a discussion forum. And remember, others are entitled to their opinions too. No matter how different they are from your own. Sometimes people are wrong (we all fall down there), sometimes they agree and sometimes they don’t. As long as we’re making an effort to chat rather than lecture and do so in good faith and with decency then it’s all good.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166902#Comment_121166902

I don't normally criticise refereeing performances and I'm shocked to hear all these good vibes about that performance being spouted. I put up that biased video because there were a number of blatant infringements shown in it that were not called. I don't agree with everything in it but I felt there was enough clear and obvious errors in it for people to realise the amount of mistakes this man made. And they were mainly calls that should have been made against Ireland. If I had the equipment I could put up a similar video of close to the same length with calls that should have been made against South Africa.

As for myself, of course I've missed things and made bad calls. Two things though, linemen are rare and I don't have a tmo.

I've already said I'm not near the level of international referees. I respect what they do. I'm a huge fan of Andrew Brace, who I know. A great referee but what people don't know is how much effort he puts into the game over here at amateur level from coaching kids to talking with referees about changes to the laws both for senior rugby and mini-rugby. I'm very involved in mini-rugby myself now because I enjoy helping kids develop their skills and understand positioning. I know the rules of the game and I nearly always end up reffing at a blitz but it's fun so I don't mind.

Anyway Andrew told me that in mini-rugby we don't call every knock on which we didn't anyway but he told me that after a couple of them that at the next break in play you address the teams and tell them it won't be accepted anymore. So I started doing this and incredibly there were a lot less knock ons. It turns out that these kids see the referee addressing teams on TV and respond well to being warned because senior internationals get warned.

Edit to add who I'd like to get the final, for me it'd be Angus Gardner.

sydthebeat · 27-09-2023 10:42pm

An alternative view

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby-world-cup-2023/133002718/rugby-world-cup-2023-referee-review-why-ben-okeeffe-blew-up-springboks-maul#:~:text=Already%20rated%20highly%20enough%20to,All%20Blacks%20not%20make%20it.

And similar

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/ref-watch-and-then-there-were-three/

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166976#Comment_121166976

I'll just answer the bit about the players. I didn't say they all don't know what they are talking about, I said a lot of them are saying incorrect things as regards the rules of the game

Yeah_Right · 27-09-2023 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167042#Comment_121167042

Seriously?!? Dont be sharing facts and unbiased opinions. TAS says he was shite and they are the experts on referees. Even when Rassie disagrees.

Edit: @eagle eye I like Angus Gardner and he generally let's a game flow. Also he's note afraid to admit mistakes to players, which I appreciate. Don't know if he's ready or rated high enough for the final yet.

eagle eye · 27-09-2023 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167042#Comment_121167042

From all my time on this site you'd be one of the most knowledgeable guys on here.

I'd love if you watched the match again and count how many errors you see of things that happened right in front of him.

Ardillaun · 28-09-2023 12:51am

Am I imagining this or has criticism of refs increased in frequency and intensity? For the life of me I just can’t understand how people volunteer for that task.

kuang1 · 28-09-2023 2:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167338#Comment_121167338

Well I think what's going on in this thread right now is a unique one... "everyone thinks (including the losing side) the referee had a good game, he didn't I tells ya. I'm outraged that I'm the only one outraged!"

But it seems to be just one poster, so no I don't think it's increased in frequency or intensity.

ersatz · 28-09-2023 4:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167389#Comment_121167389

This thread and Saturday’s match aside I think there has been a lot of ref criticism in this WC. But the Farrell/Deysel imbalance, anthems, beer, queues, ppv idea, etc. has focussed a lot of minds on world rugby’s general dysfunction. I think this will be a theme in the coming years. The lack of urgency around tier 2 development and participation, the failure of private ownership in England and the US, drop off in SH quality…plenty to be angry about.

molloyjh · 28-09-2023 8:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167338#Comment_121167338

It absolutely has. I’m also very worried about how they are even spoken about in general. The way so many pundits have said “O’Keefe was good, he didn’t make it all about him and let the game flow” as though referees often make it about themselves and are the reason for free kicks, penalties and cards. They aren’t. The players are. A referee is there to enforce the laws of the game, not to get out of players way regardless of what they do or don’t do. It’s a really damaging way to look at the referees job IMO.

ionadnapokot · 28-09-2023 8:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121165748#Comment_121165748

Even if Healy comes back he wont be fit or sharp. I'm afraid its very much all on Porter.

Simply stunning what he's doing. I would gamble a bit v Scot. He has to start but don't send him out for the second half.

TheRona · 28-09-2023 9:13am

I think Ireland's biggest strength heading forward in this tournament (apart from the fact that they seem almost completely injury free) is that they've managed to build a narrative over the last few years that they're a clean team. I'd say they're better at the dark arts than most sides, and know what they can and can't get away with. They're also very good at avoiding red card situations, which helps the narrative even further.

It reminds me a lot of how NZ used to be for years, and I'd expect the rub of the green in key decisions in a big match to favour Ireland.

The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

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