The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

aloooof · 28-09-2023 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167710#Comment_121167710

But it's not just a narrative that they're a clean team if it's backed up by the fact that they have the best discipline. They actually are a clean team.

irelandrover · 28-09-2023 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167744#Comment_121167744

Theyre a disciplined team. They seem to know just how to stay on the right side of refs.

Especially at rucks we seem to get away with a lot.

TheRona · 28-09-2023 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167744#Comment_121167744

Yes, I probably worded it wrong. Because they don't commit any obvious yellow/borderline red offences, they are able to get away with a lot of the niggly small stuff. This will definitely help them as they progress through the tournament.

ionadnapokot · 28-09-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167710#Comment_121167710

Ireland have been exemplary since Joe Schmidt took over. This isn't something new or a narrative. Its 10 years in the making.

What has changed is the narrative towards the referees. There is allot less chat from the players & of course Sexton used to be simply appalling. Appalling. He improved during the 6N.

To see him talk calmly and respectfully to Ben O'Keefe was very encouraging. In fact he made his point brilliantly.

aloooof · 28-09-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167758#Comment_121167758

I remember around the AI's last year, an article on the difference between the cumulative reds and yellows between NH and SH teams, specifically Ireland. It was quite stark, I'll try find it again if I can.

And the Ireland v France game in the 6 Nations was not just the ranked 1 vs 2 teams in the world, it was also the 2 best diciplined sides as well, iirc.

Ever since POM's red vs Wales in the 6 Nations in 2021, Ireland's discpline has been really exceptional. (Tho I still think James Ryan has been lucky enough on occasion; his improved physicality at the breakdown has been more than a little "borderline" at times. But I guess if you're not getting pinged, there's exactly where you want to draw the line).

Ribs1234 · 28-09-2023 9:36am

At the risk of shifting the goal posts, I think the ref was let down by his linesmen (it is their job to watch out for the offside (defence and being behind the kicker), crooked throws and off the ball stuff), particularly whoever was running the line on the opposite side of the pitch to the tv cameras.

also as the players get faster and more professional, I think it is getting too much for one referee to take it all in and process it. Is it time for two refs at international level? I thought the same watching the ERC final.

pickarooney · 28-09-2023 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167593#Comment_121167593

I'd put it in the top three things threatening the existence of rugby

financial collapse. Club game in UK and Aus in peril, NZ could be badly affected.
brain injury issues. Less take-up, particularly among children
continued harassment and criticism of referees. Nobody is going to want to volunteer to ref
competition from other sports: AFRL, NRL in Aus have done for union there, soccer in Wales, several sports in NZ overtaking rugby
refusal to help Tier 2/3 countries progress
lack of clarity about laws at every level, seemingly random application of laws, too much complexity for new viewers
the end of FTA transmisions for big tournaments / broadcasting in general
corollary to 1 and 5, a widening gap between the countries where rugby is healthy and the rest. France could conceivably be miles out on their own within a decade. SA and Ireland are largely dependent on the survival of clubs in Wales, England, Scotland be being in the same league

pickarooney · 28-09-2023 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167624#Comment_121167624

If Porter got injured I'd seriously consider moving Bealham across and having Furlong and O'Toole manage tight head. I have pretty much no confidence in Kilcoyne or Loughman at this level.

phog · 28-09-2023 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167974#Comment_121167974

Point 6 can lead to point 3, fans see their team being pinged for something that the same ref has let go. We've seen teams being pinged for something at one end of the field and teams being "coached" at the other end of the field.

Fans invest a lot in the game too, they'll feel entitled to be outraged when it's their team they see as being pinged.

I'm case anyone thinks I'm condoning any abuse, let me be clear I'm not.

GreeBo · 28-09-2023 12:07pm

On the lineouts against SA, was it:

1) The throws

2) The jumps/lifts

3) SA closing the gap illegally

pickarooney · 28-09-2023 12:33pm

Yes

Lost Ormond · 28-09-2023 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167974#Comment_121167974

could be a thread in itself

The game ttself is in trouble in australia not simply the professional game.

Rugby is taking on concussion/brain injury issues with trials on tackle etc. How effective these are. too early to know

Referees are seeing more and more abuse but the saving grace is rugby traditionally has been at top end of sports and respect for officials. It is worrying though.

Refusal to help tier 2/3 isnt great but unions try to protect themselves and its linked hugely with issue 1.

arsebiscuits1 · 28-09-2023 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167787#Comment_121167787

But I guess if you're not getting pinged, there's exactly where you want to draw the line).

You're last point is the most relevant for sure. The best players play exactly on the edge of where they should.

James Ryan hits hundreds of attacking rucks over a season. His technique has been questioned consistently for the last 3 years minimum.

The numbers just don't stack up for me. He's never received a Red card in his career and never been binned for head contact in a ruck. Perhaps he's gotten the odd pen given for going off his feet but never dangerously or recklessly

Part of the reason he's lauded as one of the best second rows in the world is his rucking accuracy that doesn't diminish with fatigue. I think the fatigue point is relevant too as that can be attributed to a lot of red card for head contact incidents there.

It's also for me why it will take a lot of Ryan to lose his place. Ireland rely on quick clean ball more than most. He is the best at providing it.

Yeah_Right · 28-09-2023 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167744#Comment_121167744

It is an interesting comparison though. For years I had to listen to fans from other countries, especially Ireland as that's where I live, about how dirty the ABs were and how McCaw was a cheat. Yet this wasn't backed up by the number of cards or penalties. Therefore they were a clean team, right? I think McCaw's yellow vs Argentina in RWC 2015 was only his 2nd at test level in 140 plus matches. So he wasn't a cheat, right?

Dubinusa · 28-09-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167974#Comment_121167974

I've been thinking about the health of rugby in Scotland for a while. Seriously, they're in a dire spot. The u20's are at sea. They didn't qualify for the u20 world cup and they've been desperately poor for a while.

Italy on the other hand have progressed,as far as u20 rugby goes. Why Italy haven't become a bigger national draw in Italy is problematic. Italy is the type of nation that has the size(population) to grow. Similarly, Japan have the potential to be a big market.

The U.S will be a good draw in time. The mlr is not great and still needs time to develop.

Australia is awful to watch. The decline is staggering. They are basically a tier 2 nation. How it's repaired is difficult. The sport lags behind the other sports and the product is poor.

World rugby are poor administrators imo. They are not developing the sport.

ionadnapokot · 28-09-2023 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167977#Comment_121167977

That's a big ask of Bealham. I doubt it will happen though.

In fairness Killer did hold up that scrum at the end but it would be a massive worry. And maybe the lads could just about manage Laulala/Lomax v NZ and potentially Francis/Lewis.

ironingbored · 28-09-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167182#Comment_121167182

I just had a look through the Ireland vs South Africa Autumn international and counted 19 penalty infringements by South Africa in the first half alone not picked up by the ref.

In from the side at a rucks, pre-latches, late hits, possible head contact (x2), not driving straight in the scrum, closing the gap in the lineout, kicking the ball forward in a ruck, not entering through the gate, holding players in the ruck, tackles around the neck, in front of the kicker from the restart (x2), running around in the scrum, leaving the scrum before ball is out, joining maul from the side.

Lost Ormond · 28-09-2023 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168836#Comment_121168836

Thats similar in most games though. You could pick out infringements and several in many cases at most rucks but the ball becomes available/is available therefore you move on. dependent on whats happened/infringement you have a word. you could probably do the same for r ireland for in at side etc etc

GreeBo · 28-09-2023 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167974#Comment_121167974

1 is deffo linked to 5 I Think.

2) reduce tackle height, who cares if it means more offloads, thats more entertaining anyway.

5) There sure be a plate tournament at every world cup, let the 3rd & 4th from each group continue on for plate final. Would mean more games for them and more rugby for people to "watch".

6) Maybe laws need to turn into rules? Sacrilege I know, but is there just too much scope for interpretation with laws?

7) Disaster

Also, why SHs aren;t called out for not putting the ball in straight at a scrum is annoying. Not much point in having the hooker hook is the SH throws the ball straight to the 8.

TheRona · 28-09-2023 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169024#Comment_121169024

I don't think anyone is against lowering tackling height due to increased offloads. I'm sure where they trialled lowering tackles to waist and below, it resulted in more head injuries, which is not the direction they want to be going - especially when the current protocol around red cards and head contact is having no impact whatsoever on reducing head contacts*

* This is based on my general observations, I have no idea whether it is actually having an impact, and have no idea where data about this can be found.

ironingbored · 28-09-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169009#Comment_121169009

Oh I know. This is exactly was TASanalytics has done in that video.

TRC10 · 28-09-2023 3:30pm

Bealham started a game at LH against Georgia in 2020 and got absolutely destroyed. Zero chance he's starting LH in a World Cup knockout game.

Paul Smeenus · 28-09-2023 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167593#Comment_121167593

It really boils my pish when a ref is trying to communicate with players to keep a game free-flowing and folk complain that he or she is "making it all about themselves". They're not - they're trying to get the players playing within the parameters they want to see.

Having said that, my real bugbear is - in stark contrast - refs bellowing "leave it" or "lost now" for five rucks in a row while a team continually slows down the opposition ball. They know what they're doing, and make a big show of relenting when called out, having already slowed the ball down. Instead of shouting at them four times, shout once, and penalise them the second ruck. That'll make them behave.

Bogwoppit · 28-09-2023 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169279#Comment_121169279

Ah TRC will you away and sh1te.

The Bealham of 2023 is not the Bealham of 2020. If we had that attitude then we’d never get anywhere, x player was bad 3 years ago therefore cannot be any good now.

I would be surprised if he did start but that doesn’t mean I don’t think he’d be more than capable. I’d certainly have Bealham over any of the Scottish props.

28-09-2023 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169310#Comment_121169310

The 'leave it' calls are not always because the defending team are doing something illegal, often the continued attempts to jackle are stopping the ball from coming back when possession has been retained so it really is just to get the game moving again.

If a player is illegal from the get go I find the ref will always blow, but if they've started legal and then for one reason or another drifted into illegal they might get a warning at that point as opposed to when they first went in. The balance is usually ok but you do at times notice the referee might drift into the zone a bit and give too much instruction to the point they're shouting "NOOO RED" to stop a player from infringing. If you have to be that urgent in your instructions then you've potentially shifted into on field coaching.

GreeBo · 28-09-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169310#Comment_121169310

Sure he was looking at Etzebeth offside, telling him he was offside, letting him jump to block our kick and still didnt blow the whistle.

ersatz · 28-09-2023 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169398#Comment_121169398

I thought BOK had a great game, and everyone (mostly) coming away saying so is as important as how he executed hi duties, unfortunately. BUT I didn't like the way he was coaching Eben's offsides.

Ardillaun · 29-09-2023 3:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121162637#Comment_121162637

Years ago, myself and the wife drove from Cape Town to George via Montagu. A magical trip.

eagle eye · 29-09-2023 4:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167974#Comment_121167974

There's lots of kids coming to play, it's when they reach their teens and you starting getting high tackles that parents get uncomfortable with it.

eagle eye · 29-09-2023 4:10am

Also just want to give props to Jaco Peyper for an excellent refereeing performance.

The Hurt Locker: Ireland v South Africa. Saturday 23rd September. Stade DeFrance

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