Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Consonata · 29-09-2023 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171556#Comment_121171556

They do, don't get me wrong, though given the relatively straight/wide quality of the N11, and that the E spine has one of the highest frequencies of any (due to demand), and that the Luas, should the Metro extend to Sandyford, will likely end at Harcourt St./Charlemont, then a spur from Harcourt St. down the N11 would likely be a lot cheaper than other comparable roads.

My preference for west Dublin is a Metro, more than a Luas to be honest, given the surface geography. It wouldn't lead to a particularly good service if it was navigating Rathfarnham/Terenure.

Just to reiterate, my N11 suggestion is more a suggestion of practicality rather than need.

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 12:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172348#Comment_121172348

I get ya but you can’t keep pouring money into one area of dublin that already has LUAS, QBC’s and heavy rail at the expense of other areas.

Increase the amount of busses and frequency on the QBC by making the bus driver roll more inviting (increase wages, improve rosters, provide transport police, enforce QBC’s) and do likewise on the DART.

Building a parallel LUAS line so commuters in that area won’t be inconvenienced for a couple of years, when certain other areas of dublin are crying out for quality PT is nuts imo.

This will just be another project that clogs up ABP even more. (The solution being to increase ABP capacity but that’s for a different thread and I’m blue in the face pointing that out anyway!)

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171728#Comment_121171728

All projects are grinding to a halt because of ABP.

Yhe minister in charge being Darragh o Brien, yet there’s very little public or political pressure on him to massively (adequately) expand ABP to allow it to make decisions on critical infrastructure within 8 weeks.

I don’t understand why?

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172150#Comment_121172150

No because a bunch of LUAS lines popping up all over the city will take years to get through planning!

Make being a bus driver more attractive and you get more bus drivers which means staying away from the black hole of ABP.

bk · 29-09-2023 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172541#Comment_121172541

Unfortunately that simply isn’t going to work given the demographic shifts we are facing. I mean this will be a very long term problem, as in decades, so even if it takes time to build those Luas lines, that may well still be the way we have to go.

The issues with ABP need to be sorted regardless.

bk · 29-09-2023 1:25pm

The problem we have, is that our public transport system is built around busses. That is very unusual for a European city the size of Dublin. Most similar cities, the core of their public transport network is built around multiple Metro and tram lines (and DART type service for commuting). Busses largely play a supporting role to that core network operating from Metro stations, etc.

Ireland currently has the highest level of employment (and thus lowest level of unemployment) that it has ever had in its history. And given our demographic trends that isn’t going to change for the forseeable future. We need to start planning for that and reorienting our public transport system around this reality.

Of course I’m not saying that we shouldn’t do everything possible to make bus driving more attractive, but in reality that will be a temporary fix at best.

We need Metros and more Luas and BRT and Triaxle busses and even more Metros.

Consonata · 29-09-2023 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172475#Comment_121172475

Dublin Bus have been doing that though. Believe me they don't want ghost buses anymore than the general public do, nor Busconnects being delayed by years. Bus driver shortage is a massive bottleneck on us getting any of the QBCs finished. Replacing 2 or 3 of the QBCs with luas lines, Luas's which can carry the capacity of several buses with 1 driver, is preferable as it frees up those drivers to start working on any of the new routes/upping the frequency on existing routes.

We need to be thinking about drivers as a relatively finite quantity and how we want to use them best rather than hoping that better salary packages would encourage more to enter the service.

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172742#Comment_121172742

How long will it take to improve driver conditions and hence recruit more drivers

VS

design multiple LUAS lines

Get multiple LUAS lines through planning and appeals and more planning and more appeals and possible JRs

recruit more LUAS drivers

etc

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172647#Comment_121172647

Yes but my point is if you make bus driving more attractive you will get more bus drivers a hell of a lot quicker than developing all the lovely infrastructure from scratch that you are rightly saying we should have.

bk · 29-09-2023 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172824#Comment_121172824

No, you really aren't seeing the bigger picture. You aren't seeing the demographic changes that have pretty much every industry short on staff.

By 2026 it is estimated that Europe will have 2 million unfilled driver poistions (that includes trucking BTW, not just bus drivers)!

Lots of older drivers are approaching retirement age, while there are less young people entering the work force simply due to lower birth rates. Basically all of Europe has a quickly aging population, with not enough young people due to steeply dropping birth rates.

This problem isn't going to get better, it will get worse over the coming years and decades.

Of course, in the very short term we need to do everything we can to attract and retain drivers.

However that won't be enough in the medium to long term given the dempgrahpic changes faced and we need to start palnning today for that reality and start planning more high cpacity and automated systems to deal with this very serious long term problem.

So yes, we need to do what we can to get drivers, but we also need to start planning right now for this demographic shift.

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172878#Comment_121172878

Ok so we start designing Luas lines all over Dublin and a couple more metro lines.

That’s great but if we don’t expand and reform ABP we are pissing in the wind IMO.

bk · 29-09-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172903#Comment_121172903

Yes, that is exactly what we should be doing.

Even if there wasn't a driver shortage, we still shouldn't be so reliant on buses.

Look at Amsterdam, same size as Dublin, they have 5 metro lines and 18 tram lines. Either way we need to do the same. Driver shortage just makes even more necessary.

29-09-2023 2:40pm

ABP Reform is underway. As is addressing the shortages of staffing

Planning legislation is being rewritten

Planning courts are being setup

It's all being done.

Biggest problem is it won't be enough. As an example the courts need probably 30 more judges at the High Court level alone, they'll be lucky to get 12

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173028#Comment_121173028

So who is driving this reform? Is it solely coming from Darragh o briens department or what?

what’s the timeframe for improvements?

29-09-2023 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173063#Comment_121173063

So who is driving this reform? Is it solely coming from Darragh o briens department or what?

Yes

what’s the timeframe for improvements?

The Planning bill is up for this session (autumn) of the Dail

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/638e3-minister-hildegarde-naughton-publishes-autumn-legislative-programme-with-51-priority-bills-due-for-progression/

Its yet to be seen what the final version will look like. If he proceeds with trying to limit access to justice as per the earlier drafts, its likely part or all of the bill will be struck down by the courts, if not the EU. O'Brien has been warned by every single contributor during consultation (except the construction industry) that this will happen if he proceeds with that element.

Thread below has followed it so you'll find more info there

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211322/planning-delays-to-infrastructure

Once the bill gets approved it could take a while (1-3 years) for all the changes to work their way through the various systems including staffing up, and we'll likely see a new govt at that stage so who knows what the shift in priorities will be.

I don't know of anyone who thinks the current system is working and there's a lot of good stuff in the new Planning Bill, but it could all be undone by a handful of elements if O'Brien ignores the warnings, in which case we could remain in the current quagmire for another decade

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173171#Comment_121173171

Christ almighty 🤦‍♂️.

Better get hiring those bus drivers on improved contracts so!

bk · 29-09-2023 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173184#Comment_121173184

3 years is nothing in terms of infrastructure, the demographic changes facing us will only get worse over the next decades. So yes, we need to hire more driver, but also start planning for more Metro and Luas lines.

The thing about BusConnects, I like a lot of what it is trying to do, but in many ways it is just doing now what should have been done 30 years ago and in many ways it is a cheapening out on what we should be doing today. We should be building BRT and Luas on the core radial routes, instead they are trying to sell us that things can be improved with simple double deckers! Frankly I'm not at all convinced.

I really like the oribtal routes, 24/7 routes, 90 minute ticket, etc. But I'm really not convinced we will see signifcant capacity improvements on the core radial routes. I suspect we are approaching the maximum capacity of double deckers on these routes and we need to seriously start planning for either BRT or Luas on these routes.

It is a real pity they scrapped the Swiftway plan rather then integrating it into BusConnects.

tom1ie · 29-09-2023 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173278#Comment_121173278

Agree with you but it’s 3 years from the bill getting approved.

If it doesn’t get improved in the first place we are back to square one.

loco_scolo · 29-09-2023 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173028#Comment_121173028

Is it possible that ABP are sitting / slowing down approvals for big projects until the new laws / courts are set up? I mean, why approve something now if it will get caught in Judicial Reviews, if you can delay a few months and avoid even longer delays.

Bsharp · 29-09-2023 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171728#Comment_121171728

I had my little rant in the navan thread about much the same; off the back of a torturous process to get a submission in. A few colleagues said they'd leave if they had to work on another similar project. Still no Oral Hearing date set for Metrolink, and the lack of international interest from D&B contractors is telling. There's lack of faith in our ability to implement PT schemes of this scale, and the industry is reluctant to invest in a bidding process that may lead to no where. It's going to be a real challenge to generate competitive interest unless the UK makes a further mess of their own market.

Bsharp · 29-09-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173171#Comment_121173171

Can't say I'm optimistic about the bill, history tells us that half-baked legislation without proper consideration given to, and by, affected industries leads to worse results. The planners I work with have a lot of reservations.

It can't have been easy for ABP with so many tweaks and changes to legislation over recent years in housing. However, no real excuse for not being able to assess a metro scheme who's predecessor through a similar process a few years ago.

road_high · 29-09-2023 9:47pm

I don’t live in Dublin but visit regularly- I hate the thought of already sparse critical infrastructure being disrupted. I’m no rail engineer but I think the Metro should not be completely separate to existing Luas lines and not duplicate what’s already there

Zebra3 · 29-09-2023 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174714#Comment_121174714

You want the metro to run on existing Luas lines?

road_high · 29-09-2023 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175064#Comment_121175064

No I want them separate, separate projects

cgcsb · 30-09-2023 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174714#Comment_121174714

There was never any plan to duplicate it. The original metrolink proposal was for the main part of the luas green line to be converted to metro, so there'd be a continuous metro line between Swords and Sandyford

Qrt · 30-09-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171969#Comment_121171969

As far as I know, there are only two courses in the republic that give you planning accreditation. Both two years masters courses. Sky high fees.

Consonata · 30-09-2023 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175089#Comment_121175089

I'm a bit confused by this. Is this a point that we shouldn't be extending Metrolink on the southern Green Line in future?

gjim · 30-09-2023 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174714#Comment_121174714

Show me a city in Europe with great PT infrastructure and I'll show you the years of disruption they experienced to build the infrastructure. A metro line will last for at least 100 years - even if it took 2 entire years of shutting down the Green line south of Charlemont to upgrade it to metro and tie it in with ML, then it's an easy win given the century of payback in with doubled capacity, frequency and utility.

Dubliners and Irish people need to get over this fear of "disruption" and temporary inconvenience in order to secure long term benefits. Going out of your way to avoid "disruption" is a form of shorttermism or often an excuse to do nothing.

tom1ie · 30-09-2023 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178819#Comment_121178819

It’s not Dubliners- it’s a select few who are making a shite load of noise.

Murph85 · 30-09-2023 11:45pm

https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/dublin-businesses-are-now-at-a-tipping-point-in-long-wait-for-irelands-first-metro/a912572014.html

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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