Not a fair deal

square4 · 29-09-2023 2:01pm #1

Hi

I want to put my mother in a nursing home but don't want the fair deal scheme, she has right of residence in house til she passes and land passes straight to me also,if she goes to a nursing home does state contribute or do I have to pay myself for her .

ohnonotgmail · 29-09-2023 2:05pm

if she doesn't own her own home then Fair Deal would work out better as they just take 80% of her income plus 7.5% of whatever other assets she may have.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316028/not-a-fair-deal

You have a choice. You can pay the nursing home privately between yourself and your mother and anyone else in your family who wants to contribute.

Nursing homes start at about €1000 per week.

Or you can apply for the Fair Deal.

There’s no other contribution or help you can get from the state for this.

The nursing home needs to be paid, in arrears, usually twice monthly. You can pay in cash or set up a standing order with the bank.

Chiropody, hairdresser etc are extra and are usually billed monthly.

thomas 123 · 29-09-2023 4:52pm

I'm ignorant on this subject but can you not go into a state run home or is that a no no?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/residentialcare/

Best of luck OP, I hope whatever happens you and your mum are happy with it!

mickdw · 29-09-2023 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173548#Comment_121173548

State run homes are 1800 per week in many cases.

Fair deal makes alot of sense in most cases but people need to plan for these things.

In the ops case, fair deal seems to make sense unless the land is substantial and is still belonging to mother.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173548#Comment_121173548

All nursing homes, privately run or publicly run, are subject to the Fair Deal. It has to “fair” for everyone.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173566#Comment_121173566

If income, capital property land etc is substantial then the candidate for the nursing home and their family need to consult with their accountant/solicitor before they commit, or not, to the fair deal.

29-09-2023 5:43pm

I can only speak here for what my own mother did in her and my particular situation. We were always best friends, I have no siblings, my father was deceased, so things were straightforward. My mother wanted me to get the family home and as much as possible without the state taking too much, so she made a strategy.

To begin with she gave me enduring power of attorney, just in case she ever lost her marbles or “became uncooperative” as she put it, which she never did, and it never had to be invoked. Then she sold the south Dublin semi-D family home, had all the proceeds transferred to me; at same time I chose a suitable apartment for her to come live with me. Paid the due tax which at the time worked out about same as inheritance tax would have. She divested herself such that she had no more than €1500 to her name. I made sure the last years of her life were the very best ones, and she had enough health to travel regularly with me right until her fairly “unexpected” death aged 89. She always said what she didn’t have the state couldn’t take, and held the “official” view that I bore no responsibility to her. She never did have to go in anywhere, but she was making sure that if she did I wouldn’t lose out by it. I had health issues and she knew I could have my life financially compromised at any time, so pulled out all the stops to provide for me.

My being an only child, our excellent relationship, and she having a very practical frame of mind, made this possible and straightforward.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173766#Comment_121173766

An elderly person can give all of their money and property to anyone they like. But:

If they gifted it at any time during the 5 years previous to them needing the Fair Deal Scheme then it will be still counted as the elderly persons wealth for the purposes of the fair deal.
The tax cut off for gifts between parent and child is currently €335,000, but much less if the relationship is more detached.
If an elderly person divests themselves of assets to a relative or anyone at all, really and then applies for a non con pension on the grounds that they have no income then they will be disqsulified.
Last point. Your mother gave you everything? If she had actually needed nursing home care in the end , you expected the tax payer to foot the bill. While you enjoyed the wealth she transferred to you. You do realise when you are referring to “the state” you actually mean the tax payer. Why would you think that you could transfer the care of your mother to the man on the street?

thomas 123 · 29-09-2023 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173628#Comment_121173628

Euthanasia it is for me so!

893bet · 29-09-2023 8:37pm

With regards to number 4…..it’s just prudent financial planning and nothing illegal or immoral about it. Not sure why you are doing the “tax payer will have to foot the bill” bit.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 8:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174348#Comment_121174348

So, you think it’s prudent for a perfectly healthy elderly person to transfer their entire estate to an adult child?

Bear in mind that for the purposes of Fair Deal the transfer of assets needs to have been completed 5 full years before the suggestion of nursing home care even comes into the reckoning.

So as a single aging person you have left yourself without even the roof over your head, risking that a row with or a change in circumstances for your child could leave you overnight looking for a bed in a hostel, just so you can avoid paying your own way?

It speaks volumes of you if you imagine that absolving yourself of any obligation to pay for your own nursing care is not “immoral”.

Part of the concept of the fair deal scheme is that the money recouped following the death of a comfortable pensioner goes back into the pot to make sure that a very poor pensioner gets the very same care and attention.

But… hey… who cares about the poor people, eh?! Not 893bet, that’s for sure?

Tell us this much… if you’re not paying for your parents nursing home care, and your parent is not paying for their nursing home care, then who is paying for it?!?

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174296#Comment_121174296

Yep. For some people it’s definitely more attractive to take their own lives rather then pay their own way.

JeffKenna · 29-09-2023 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174450#Comment_121174450

What a disgusting comment.

29-09-2023 9:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173953#Comment_121173953

That was in noughties btw, she died 2009. Do you object that my mother looked after my interests strategically? There was nothing illegal about what she did 😉

I personally believe strongly in a proper socialist system, something we have not got.

893bet · 29-09-2023 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174437#Comment_121174437

Its prudent financial planning simple as. Leave the emotion out of it. If you don’t do it out of some moral objection then you are frankly silly. It’s perfectly legal tax avoidance as such.

You will pay at that time for care the same as “the poor people” will 85 percent of your income.

Assuming you were lucky enough to have built up a little nest egg and want to pass it on then it’s likely you paid your fair share of taxes along the way…..

The tax system has the 5 year “look back” which means you have to be in good health to take this approach.

If you take this approach as part of the transfer of a house there would always be a “right of residence” put in place by the elders solicited meaning you can’t end up with out a roof over you head. There are also maintenance packages typically put in place (but in the event of a fall out these may be more difficult enforce legally).

And yes you would need to have a trustful relationship with your son/daughter I think also.

29-09-2023 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174437#Comment_121174437

Believe me, there would never in a lifetime be a disagreement like that between myself and my mother. We absolutely adored each other. What was mine was hers and vice versa. She did a huge amount of selfless work, and was extremely charitable so there goes sone of the assumptions. She was always a “me last” person, the way she was brought up, I made sure she was top of the queue in her last years, when I could.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174464#Comment_121174464

So… you didn’t read the comment I was replying to? It’s right there…quoted in my post….

893bet · 29-09-2023 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174495#Comment_121174495

Don’t feel bad in the slightest. At every stage the “state” is there to finger your arse pocket so be thankful ye managed to shelter something from them in a perfectly legal manner.

Whats that saying…..don’t hate the player….

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 9:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174494#Comment_121174494

Ah yes. The old “I/my mother/father paid their taxes all their lives etc etc” line.

So, you would be encouraging absolutely everyone approaching old age (say 66) to get busy and sign their entire life’s savings and property (less €36,000 for a single person and €72000 for a couple) over to their nearest younger relative to avoid nursing home care costs.

Say, the roof needs replacing. Say there’s a serious illness. Say another family member lands in a spot of trouble (a spouse dies, divorce etc) and needs a bit of help, say you’d like to move house for whatever reason (you don’t own the house any more, remember? So you can’t sell it) how is that going to work?

893bet · 29-09-2023 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174593#Comment_121174593

So emotive.

I personally wouldn’t encourage anyone do anything. It’s quite an individualistic choice and really depends on the relationship between the two parties and the motives of the elder.

My perspective (for when I am an elder) is….Given there is limited advantage to the elder in the tranfer then I am not sure I would do it other than with a child. As a parent I want to give them every opportunity in life and as I “can’t take it with me” well then I will be doing my best to leave “it” to them and to the state coffers.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174634#Comment_121174634

Once again with the “state coffers”. The state coffers is the actual man in the street, his wife and their kids. If you have a different notion of what state coffers are, please share it with us.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174540#Comment_121174540

Once again the “state”. Yes. The other human beings living in Ireland. I would love to hear your theory on where the money would come from to pay for your SW payment if not from the “state”?

Donald Trump · 29-09-2023 10:27pm

The land can be excluded from the FD scheme if she was farming it and you are the designated successor.

There are other criteria which must be satisfied - it isn't just a matter of ticking a box.

If she only has a life interest in any of the property, then I don't see how that can be counted. A life interest can't be sold

893bet · 29-09-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174864#Comment_121174864

If the state coffers belong to the man on the street and their kids. Then I suggest that family you mention asks for their cut of it….

Maybe my an elder divesting ther wealth early is their way of getting their share back?

As I have said it’s prudent individual tax planning to plan ahead for fair deal. Perfectly legal and certainly not immoral.

893bet · 29-09-2023 10:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174884#Comment_121174884

State funds come from a huge amount of sources. Not sure the relevance of any of your points but you are very nobel, idealistic and foolhardy also perhaps. But different stokes for different folks.

You made do as you wish with your money when the times comes. I will be making damn sure my family keeps the most amount I can legally.

the14thwarrior · 29-09-2023 10:55pm

a comment on the "right to reside". to my knowledge the fair deal counts this as if it were their own home. which will substantially increase the fees you have to pay.

you will need to do a "dummy run" on the paperwork, and put down all the assets and see if it makes financhial sense.

it's not such a fair deal when you happen to have a house or land that is worth some money, and by some money, in today's housing market, that is no small amount for even a small house. and then your savings..... and if you have more than one pension they will take the lot.

and compare it to the person in the bed beside them that has no savings, "sold" their house or lives in council property, or their house is worth more by virtue of being in a nicer estate or beside the luas.

Nope, until you see what the state takes after a life of hard work and prudent savings, you would be shocked.

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174948#Comment_121174948

And I sincerely hope that that love of money, and your determination not to share it with the weakest in society will sustain you, and your family, in your final years.

893bet · 29-09-2023 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175048#Comment_121175048

Wrt “right to reside” I dont think you are correct. 5 years after the transfer then the house is not part of asset assessment. But I could be wrong.

893bet · 29-09-2023 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175091#Comment_121175091

Oooooohh sir! well with over 2k in deductions from my monthly salary. I spend over 100 per week on diesel for a long commute so let’s not get into the excise duty. Plus all the other million incidental taxes……so I share plenty now with the weakest.

When I am old and if I am in need of care I am confident my offspring will also be diligent high earners and will be able to cover my care by way of their taxes from the state coffers; which at that point they will own part of…

TooTired123 · 29-09-2023 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175048#Comment_121175048

To apply for the fair deal is one of a number of options you have if you need full time care in your old age.

You can ask your family to look after you. You can go and live with them or one of them can come to live with you.

If that’s not possible then you can pay professionals to come and look after you at home. You’ll also be means tested to see if you are entitled to any home help.

You can go to a nursing home.

You can pay the nursing home every week yourself and your loved ones.

Or you can apply for the fair deal. I agree if you’re very wealthy then you’re better off to take advice from your accountant as to wether you wouldn’t be better off just paying for it as you go along.

Either way, the nursing home needs to be paid and the taxpayer ( you call them the state) can’t withstand that burden.

Incidentally my mother has income of around 450 a week, a house worth 125000 and savings of around 85000. The cost to her is 445 per week in a home where the actual bill is 1000.

Not a fair deal

Comments