Not a fair deal

You have a choice. You can pay the nursing home privately between yourself and your mother and anyone else in your family who wants to contribute.

Nursing homes start at about €1000 per week.

Or you can apply for the Fair Deal.

There’s no other contribution or help you can get from the state for this.

The nursing home needs to be paid, in arrears, usually twice monthly. You can pay in cash or set up a standing order with the bank.

Chiropody, hairdresser etc are extra and are usually billed monthly.

State run homes are 1800 per week in many cases.

Fair deal makes alot of sense in most cases but people need to plan for these things.

In the ops case, fair deal seems to make sense unless the land is substantial and is still belonging to mother.

If income, capital property land etc is substantial then the candidate for the nursing home and their family need to consult with their accountant/solicitor before they commit, or not, to the fair deal.

An elderly person can give all of their money and property to anyone they like. But:

1. If they gifted it at any time during the 5 years previous to them needing the Fair Deal Scheme then it will be still counted as the elderly persons wealth for the purposes of the fair deal.
2. The tax cut off for gifts between parent and child is currently €335,000, but much less if the relationship is more detached.
3. If an elderly person divests themselves of assets to a relative or anyone at all, really and then applies for a non con pension on the grounds that they have no income then they will be disqsulified.
4. Last point. Your mother gave you everything? If she had actually needed nursing home care in the end , you expected the tax payer to foot the bill. While you enjoyed the wealth she transferred to you. You do realise when you are referring to “the state” you actually mean the tax payer. Why would you think that you could transfer the care of your mother to the man on the street?

With regards to number 4…..it’s just prudent financial planning and nothing illegal or immoral about it. Not sure why you are doing the “tax payer will have to foot the bill” bit.

Yep. For some people it’s definitely more attractive to take their own lives rather then pay their own way.

Don’t feel bad in the slightest. At every stage the “state” is there to finger your arse pocket so be thankful ye managed to shelter something from them in a perfectly legal manner.

Whats that saying…..don’t hate the player….

So emotive.

I personally wouldn’t encourage anyone do anything. It’s quite an individualistic choice and really depends on the relationship between the two parties and the motives of the elder.

My perspective (for when I am an elder) is….Given there is limited advantage to the elder in the tranfer then I am not sure I would do it other than with a child. As a parent I want to give them every opportunity in life and as I “can’t take it with me” well then I will be doing my best to leave “it” to them and to the state coffers.

Once again the “state”. Yes. The other human beings living in Ireland. I would love to hear your theory on where the money would come from to pay for your SW payment if not from the “state”?

If the state coffers belong to the man on the street and their kids. Then I suggest that family you mention asks for their cut of it….

Maybe my an elder divesting ther wealth early is their way of getting their share back?

As I have said it’s prudent individual tax planning to plan ahead for fair deal. Perfectly legal and certainly not immoral.

Wrt “right to reside” I dont think you are correct. 5 years after the transfer then the house is not part of asset assessment. But I could be wrong.

To apply for the fair deal is one of a number of options you have if you need full time care in your old age.

You can ask your family to look after you. You can go and live with them or one of them can come to live with you.

If that’s not possible then you can pay professionals to come and look after you at home. You’ll also be means tested to see if you are entitled to any home help.

You can go to a nursing home.

You can pay the nursing home every week yourself and your loved ones.

Or you can apply for the fair deal. I agree if you’re very wealthy then you’re better off to take advice from your accountant as to wether you wouldn’t be better off just paying for it as you go along.

Either way, the nursing home needs to be paid and the taxpayer ( you call them the state) can’t withstand that burden.

Incidentally my mother has income of around 450 a week, a house worth 125000 and savings of around 85000. The cost to her is 445 per week in a home where the actual bill is 1000.

My mum went into a state nursing home for a year. She resisted medical care, was made a ward of the court and was appointed a social worker and guardian ad litem. The fees for the nursing home were a bit more than €1800 a week. We applied for the fair deal scheme.

When my dad passed away he had a loan against the farm and no will. The bank insisted we all sign our right to his estate over to our mum who is a toxic alcoholic. I said I wasn’t comfortable doing so and wanted it to go in one of my brothers names, both refused. I was told I had no choice and reluctantly signed the form. So everything was in my mothers name and still is. The farm was not straight forward. All 4 of my dads sisters and their aunt who passed away many years prior had a right to reside in ‘the dwelling’ this meant their family home which is now a derelict shell, there was a question of whether there could be a legal argument that this referred to the newer house my dad built when I was 5 for our family. The same people also retained the right to a site on the farm. His sisters were asked to sign away their legal rights on the property so fair deal could be processed. They saught their own legal advice and were advised not to do this. This is a fairly small farm. There is also a second small farm on which my brother has built a house, the house is in his name and his wife’s. The land it is built on was in my mums. The whole thing was a legal nightmare. In the end there was a substantial shortfall of the nursing home fees. The land in it’s entirety was assessed as hers for the purpose of fair deal but they would only cover a portion of the costs due to other legal interests in the farm. I dont remember the exact figure but there was a shortfall of around €400 a week. We were told we (her children) would have to pay it. It was paid out of a small inheritance my mum received when her brother passed away. She was only in nursing home care a year. She’s at home now after her cognitive function was assessed when she was on a very good day and the ward of court was removed and she took herself home. She has 3 home help visits a day provided for by the hse. Home help is free. She lost her medical card at the first renewal after the ward of court was removed. She’s under 70. The whole thing has been a complete nightmare. She no longer has access to alcohol, but she has to be carefully managed to make sure things stay that way. Fair deal is often far from straightforward.

Times definately changed. Two parents working is almost a given now so there is not always someone one at home already is probably a factor. People living longer also. And often not in the greatest health with a high care need difficult for a non trained person.

I would hope to be able to care at home for my father when the times comes. But it really depends on the care need. A nursing home is the last option when all other avenues are exhausted.

What a mess. Seems like very poor legal advice all around. She was deemed not eligible for the fair deal because of not being able to put a value on her property and income. Poor you. You’re better off owning nothing.

That’s it in a nut shell. Same as if you were prudent in good times and saved a little you made be excluded or take a reduced SW payment in hard times.

Apparently it’s immoral to use legal tax planning to shelter assets though.

What really is immoral is the amount of tax I (and we all) pay across income, pri, vat, excise, lpt etc.

I think you know I'm not referring to people with disabilities. I'm talking about able bodied people who chose to live on social welfare for most of their life and those that chose to spend their money on cars, holidays and luxuries rather than having assets.

But you didn’t make any distinction I’m afraid. In my experience the vast majority of people who live all their lives on Jobseekers payments live a lifestyle which results in their early demise, and rarely make it as far as a nursing home.

There are many reasons people never get off jobseekers and very few of them have anything to do with bone idleness.

The Fair Deal is designed that everyone gets treated the same in their old age.

I think that instead of resenting those you deem unworthy to breath the same air as yourself in your end of days years, you should look around your family and identify anyone who could benefit from your largesse right now instead of waiting until your dead. Sure, you need to make sure you have enough to be comfortable and warm, but just enough. Not too much,

I actually confused you with a different poster. Have edited my post!

Maybe. I think it's immoral that if I receive a payrise or a bonus, the state takes most of it. The state sets the rules, and I stay within those rules. I win some and I lose some.

You obviously fall into a certain 'lower' category yourself if you think fair deal is fair.

Remember the wealthy don't need to avail of fair deal scheme at all. Those that get screwed by fair deal are the people who worked hard and saved and scrimped throughout their lives to own a house and have a bit of savings. I've seen elderly being left very distressed about the realities of fair deal - distressed that their small assets will disappear. I've seen people who genuinely need residential care refuse to enter care because of this scheme. Genuinely fair deal scheme shafts those that are far from rich.