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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    So am I right in thinking a private company (Turner & Townsend) has been put in charge of public money in delivering metro link?

    “Two weeks ago, a group of consultants led by Dublin-based Turner & Townsend was appointed to oversee the delivery of Ireland’s first metro railway”

    Do we not have state employed Project managers for this project?

    What exactly do TII do?



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    I'd rather trust a private company to manage the budget. I don't think a publicly owned company will face repercussions for budget overruns. However a private company has an image to uphold to continue operating, plus private industry staff are generally better paid and higher motivated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Better paid and highly motivated to make money for their employer which means extras over the BOQ’s agreed with the project manager- who in this case will also be private based!!! The state will get crucified for this!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Unless the private company is in bed with every other private company, this simply won't happen. There are plenty of issues in this country, but corruption to that level does not exist.

    Cost overruns will happen if the project managers don't budget correctly, which will result in contractors beefing up their final bills.

    Lessons will have been learned from the NCH. PWC provided an extensive report on the reasons for cost overruns at the hospital, primarily to avoid repeats on other capital projects, specifically Metro and Dart.

    Be grand!!....



  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    As everything is taking forever it doesn't matter who does what, because nothing practical is being done. Appointing so-and-so or such-and-such to do imaginary things is 'Look! The boss is coming! Let's look busy!'

    Except there is no boss.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The state's motorway network was built when we were broke, and we now have decent network of motorways (with one glaring exception - Limerick - Cork).

    If it gets built as currently designed, it will be wonderful. During the construction, they may solve the Sandyford bit and that will be even better.

    Roll on Metrolink II.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    C'mon, you know that's not true about the motorway network. The main motorways were mostly built from 1998 to 2008, when we were rolling in money. When that money dried up, everything that wasn't already under contract was canned immediately. So, while a couple of roads might have still been under construction during those bad times, it wasn't by choice.

    Our current problems stem from that period. Post 2009, our national debt skyrocketed. Popular wisdom would say it was the bank bailouts, but that was only a quarter of the increase - the real killer was borrowing to keep the government running day-to-day. Back in 2000, we had a tiny national debt, so any money we received in taxes could be spent; now we have to service a huge loan first.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Naas bypass was opened 40 years ago, not in 1998.

    In 2008, there was a significant economic crash, and everything stopped. Any borrowing was needed to keep the lights on, not to keep building roads.

    It is remarkable that our economy has recovered so well and so quickly. Anyone around in 1983 will remember the country was utterly broke, with most who could leave for foreign work did leave.

    Only Charlie Haughey could afford Charvet Shirts - but that is a different story. The rest of us had to tighten our belts because we were living beyond our means. Those were the days.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The state's motorway network was built when we were broke

    It was quite the opposite. There was a rapid expansion in motorway construction precisely because we had so much income from stamp duty



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    We started building motorways in 1980 with EU money. It was only in the 2000s that the stamp duty began to be used. But most funding was borrowed. We are talking about a long period of time, but the most needed motorways were built prior to 2000 (except the M20). I think the stamp duty only started to be a significant source of Gov funding after 2000.

    Anyway, this is off topic.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,343 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    On the cost overruns for infrastructure projects, the NCH is a definite outlier, with much of the blame being rightly placed on the fact that the plans weren't finalised when the contracts were signed. The government appointed people were still making changes long after construction had started, which caused BAM to say that wasn't included in the contract, so that's extra. This included needing to go back and alter concrete walls that had just been installed. Madness.

    Metrolink seems to be at the other end of the scale entirely, the project management side of things seems to be going well, with the entire project meeting BIM level 2 standards. On the design front, things are quite well progressed, thanks in part to the very lengthy consultation process.



  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    BIM standards? It might as well be Bord Iascaigh Mhara standards as not a grain of earth will be disturbed for some considerable time to come.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    In the entire decade of the 1980s, we built just 12.5 km of motorway (the first phase of N7 Naas, and the M1 Santry bypass), funded from the Exchequer.

    The kick-start to motorway construction was the creation of the European Cohesion Fund, which was formalised in the 1992 Maastricht Treaty, but had been unofficially open for applications from member states for a year or two prior to that. With up to 85% funding available, the Government suddenly found itself with huge buying power - and at this point Ireland was still one of the poorest member-states, so we got a disproportionate share of those funds. The Single Market (also 1992) made it far easier for European construction companies to come to Ireland and do works, but our low labour costs also make those millions go pretty far.

    By the time the ECF money was running out in the early 2000s, we were swimming in Stamp Duty revenues as the first stages of the property boom came, so the next round of projects, planned for 2007 onwards, got bigger, and it's this period, when the motorway (HQDC, later redesignated as motorway) building programme really ramped up.

    This is also when the Metro as we know it now was first proposed, incidentally, complete with plans to "upgrade" the southern leg of Luas Green Line before it even went into service - apparently we were too rich now, and trams wouldn't do anymore.. Other great schemes from that era were the underground Luas Red/Green link (remember that?) put forward by the PDs (remember them?) that eventually was built overground because we're not insane; and, of course Dart Underground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    With so much development around the greenline, let's just hope total carnage from passenger numbers , forces them to up capacity...



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,816 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    We were not broke, it was Celtic Tiger Mk.1 and EU grants which paid for that.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It's due to start in early 2025. About 15-18 months to go.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It's a little comforting to note that the start date hasn't slipped since 2020. I think they originally said late 2024, now it's early 2025 which is only a few months.

    Though because I've now been waiting 18-23 years* for this, I'll believe it's happening when a drill is lowered into the ground.

    * Depending on when you consider project inception to be. It first appeared in the 2000 transport plan "A Platform For Change" and ministers for transport talked about it from then on, but official project launch wasn't until 2005.



  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Original proposal was the Ballymun and Airport proposal in the Dublin Rail Rapid Transit Study, which became DART. So we're talking forty-five years and counting. There have been a lot of cynics, vested interests and wannabe monetarists chucking roadblocks in front of that project since then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭JohnnyChimpo


    I'll believe it's happening when station fit-out begins. Even a fully-bored tunnel could end up getting converted into a subterranean whitewater-rafting facility or something



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,521 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Im now being told Oral hearing date for metrolink won't be announced until after DART+ West has concluded its oral hearing. It seems the later may end up dragging on a bit, hopes of a December date are fading, more likely metrolink will face oral hearing in the new year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    I think it'll definitely happen as long as our economy remains stable.

    If there's another crash, it'll be the first thing scrapped.

    We might get a Luas line instead to Ballymun and Airport.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII have commenced preliminary market consultation on the M400 contracts, which are for the design and construction of the tunnels, shafts and portals, shell and core station structures (underground, retained cut and at-grade), viaducts, and related MetroLink civil infrastructure.

    https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/pmc/viewPmc.do?resourceId=2490573



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,866 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Confirmation that the civil works will be delivered using the NEC4, rather than a contract from the Irish government's standard GCCC suite of contracts.

    Also interesting that it says "TII is considering the award of an early development agreement to the selected preferred tenderer for the M500 Contract to facilitate it in the role of railway systems integrator with the civil infrastructure/M400 contracts". That would mean the PPP preferred tenderer would be identified first, before the civil works contracts are awarded. They'll have to get moving with tendering the PPP as it'll take a long time with tender and assessment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,521 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Sounds promising but I'm remaining skeptical. Ibec has reduced its economic outlook and SF have stated that they'll abolish carbon tax and replace with a private jet tax, such financial illiteracy would be the end for metrolink unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 979 ✭✭✭stevedublin


    A private jet tax will mean the end of metrolink?

    Please explain...



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,521 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The degree of financial illiteracy that leads one to believe that carbon tax revenue can be replaced by a private jet tax is what could kill ML.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    The biggest threat to ML is politicians (of any stripe, but I fear it most with SF) pandering to those who feel any and all investment in Dublin is theft from Real Rural Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    As bad a joke as ffg are. Metrolink would be possibly my biggest political priority. Non of them will sort housing. If be tempted to vote for ffg as it would increase the chance of metrolink going ahead...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    SF's core voters are based in Dublin, not rural Ireland.



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