Not a fair deal

My mum went into a state nursing home for a year. She resisted medical care, was made a ward of the court and was appointed a social worker and guardian ad litem. The fees for the nursing home were a bit more than €1800 a week. We applied for the fair deal scheme.

When my dad passed away he had a loan against the farm and no will. The bank insisted we all sign our right to his estate over to our mum who is a toxic alcoholic. I said I wasn’t comfortable doing so and wanted it to go in one of my brothers names, both refused. I was told I had no choice and reluctantly signed the form. So everything was in my mothers name and still is. The farm was not straight forward. All 4 of my dads sisters and their aunt who passed away many years prior had a right to reside in ‘the dwelling’ this meant their family home which is now a derelict shell, there was a question of whether there could be a legal argument that this referred to the newer house my dad built when I was 5 for our family. The same people also retained the right to a site on the farm. His sisters were asked to sign away their legal rights on the property so fair deal could be processed. They saught their own legal advice and were advised not to do this. This is a fairly small farm. There is also a second small farm on which my brother has built a house, the house is in his name and his wife’s. The land it is built on was in my mums. The whole thing was a legal nightmare. In the end there was a substantial shortfall of the nursing home fees. The land in it’s entirety was assessed as hers for the purpose of fair deal but they would only cover a portion of the costs due to other legal interests in the farm. I dont remember the exact figure but there was a shortfall of around €400 a week. We were told we (her children) would have to pay it. It was paid out of a small inheritance my mum received when her brother passed away. She was only in nursing home care a year. She’s at home now after her cognitive function was assessed when she was on a very good day and the ward of court was removed and she took herself home. She has 3 home help visits a day provided for by the hse. Home help is free. She lost her medical card at the first renewal after the ward of court was removed. She’s under 70. The whole thing has been a complete nightmare. She no longer has access to alcohol, but she has to be carefully managed to make sure things stay that way. Fair deal is often far from straightforward.

Times definately changed. Two parents working is almost a given now so there is not always someone one at home already is probably a factor. People living longer also. And often not in the greatest health with a high care need difficult for a non trained person.

I would hope to be able to care at home for my father when the times comes. But it really depends on the care need. A nursing home is the last option when all other avenues are exhausted.

Wow what a mess.

That’s it in a nut shell. Same as if you were prudent in good times and saved a little you made be excluded or take a reduced SW payment in hard times.

Apparently it’s immoral to use legal tax planning to shelter assets though.

What really is immoral is the amount of tax I (and we all) pay across income, pri, vat, excise, lpt etc.

I think you know I'm not referring to people with disabilities. I'm talking about able bodied people who chose to live on social welfare for most of their life and those that chose to spend their money on cars, holidays and luxuries rather than having assets.

I actually confused you with a different poster. Have edited my post!

Maybe. I think it's immoral that if I receive a payrise or a bonus, the state takes most of it. The state sets the rules, and I stay within those rules. I win some and I lose some.

You obviously fall into a certain 'lower' category yourself if you think fair deal is fair.

Remember the wealthy don't need to avail of fair deal scheme at all. Those that get screwed by fair deal are the people who worked hard and saved and scrimped throughout their lives to own a house and have a bit of savings. I've seen elderly being left very distressed about the realities of fair deal - distressed that their small assets will disappear. I've seen people who genuinely need residential care refuse to enter care because of this scheme. Genuinely fair deal scheme shafts those that are far from rich.

Yes I don't believe those that worked hard all their lives to have a little wealth should have that robbed off them. Remember as I said earlier it's the people with small income, have a modest home and savings that have to use fair deal - it's not used by the wealthy. Those that worked, paid taxes and contributed all their lives should be looked after for free when they need care. Instead we have a system that once again rewards the people that contributed nothing over their lifetime with free care. ( and I exclude the disabled and long term sick from this for clarity)

I don't agree with an elderly person having to transfer their assets and savings to someone else in order to have a 'better deal' in fair deal if they need it. They are leaving themselves very vulnerable. They shouldn't need to do this - it is actually a form of elder abuse but the government are forcing people to go down this road.

Do you think it's right that the unfairness of fair deal sheme actually discourages elderly people from entering homes. My husband has an elderly aunt who is not able to care for herself but refuses to go into a home because she can't bear to see her family home having to be sold after her death to pay off fair deal. The house is basic she never spent any money on it over the years. She feels she is failing her parents who worked hard to buy that house in the 1930s - she sees it as giving away a chunk of her happy family home. It's very emotive and sad to see but it's the reality.

Fair deal does need to be evaluated - not every case is fair at all

I couldn't care less about inheritance - we are not going to inherit his aunt's property - another niece will. It's about fairness - those who have nothing ( whether by lifestyle or by transfer of assets) get care for free why shouldn't everybody. The stay in a nursing home is unfortunately relatively short for many elderly - leaving elderly stressing about fair deal in their final days is unfair.

You mentioned your mother earlier who I'm sure worked hard to have a house worth 125k. She ended up on a small pension - I think it's very unfair she should have a portion of that taken for her care while others pay nothing for the exact same care.

That's not fair at all.