Not a fair deal

Lower category? Hmmm…

Ok. What’s the answer then?

You don’t think that people should have to pay in any way for nursing home care.

You think that their home and their savings should sit untouched while they are being looked after around the clock in the nursing home.

And that after they have died that their beneficiaries, who didn’t contribute anything monetary to their benefactors care either, should collect their inheritance and continue on their merry way. Fine.

But nursing homes cost money. Nurses, care assistants, food, electricity, laundry, heat etc

So, who should pay?

Yes I don't believe those that worked hard all their lives to have a little wealth should have that robbed off them. Remember as I said earlier it's the people with small income, have a modest home and savings that have to use fair deal - it's not used by the wealthy. Those that worked, paid taxes and contributed all their lives should be looked after for free when they need care. Instead we have a system that once again rewards the people that contributed nothing over their lifetime with free care. ( and I exclude the disabled and long term sick from this for clarity)

I don't agree with an elderly person having to transfer their assets and savings to someone else in order to have a 'better deal' in fair deal if they need it. They are leaving themselves very vulnerable. They shouldn't need to do this - it is actually a form of elder abuse but the government are forcing people to go down this road.

Do you think it's right that the unfairness of fair deal sheme actually discourages elderly people from entering homes. My husband has an elderly aunt who is not able to care for herself but refuses to go into a home because she can't bear to see her family home having to be sold after her death to pay off fair deal. The house is basic she never spent any money on it over the years. She feels she is failing her parents who worked hard to buy that house in the 1930s - she sees it as giving away a chunk of her happy family home. It's very emotive and sad to see but it's the reality.

Fair deal does need to be evaluated - not every case is fair at all

For free? You mean the taxpayer should pay for your parent to be looked after around the clock so that you can claim your full inheritance after they’ve died.

In your case you and your husband want to inherit his aunts property after she dies and at the same time you want the man in the street to pay for her full time care.

Why did you type all this when I can sum it up in one sentence for you?

I couldn't care less about inheritance - we are not going to inherit his aunt's property - another niece will. It's about fairness - those who have nothing ( whether by lifestyle or by transfer of assets) get care for free why shouldn't everybody. The stay in a nursing home is unfortunately relatively short for many elderly - leaving elderly stressing about fair deal in their final days is unfair.

You mentioned your mother earlier who I'm sure worked hard to have a house worth 125k. She ended up on a small pension - I think it's very unfair she should have a portion of that taken for her care while others pay nothing for the exact same care.

That's not fair at all.

My mother and her children are very glad that she’s being looked after so well in her nursing home. Because we all live in the real world we understand that if none of us can care for her either in her own home or our homes that someone else needs to be paid to look after her.

Strangely enough we nor she don’t expect the man in the street to pay for that. She’s our mother. No need to involve anyone else.

Your suggestion that the tax payer can foot the bill for every single resident in a nursing home in Ireland, while their beneficiaries get to walk away with their inheritance after they die is ludicrous.

In fair deal, nothing is stolen from the person. They are looked after, and after they die, a contribution is taken from their estate. A dead person cannot own something legally or in reality.

I would hazard a guess that a portion of the population would be much quicker to steer elderly parents and relatives prematurely into nursing homes if there was zero impact to their expected inheritance

What would happen in the following situation:

An elderly person- a widower, with just the full contributory pension and no savings- gets so fragile that he needs to go into a nursing home. Suppose his son- his only child- is living with him in the family home as well. The son is disabled and on DA. Does the son have to fork out any money as well or pay out of his inheritance- which will be the family home? How is the son supposed to pay if he has no income other than DA? Is he supposed to sell the house after the death of his father and join the homeless people crowd? Where is the fair deal in that one?

What you have on this thread is an assortment of folk who have had their eye on their inheritance for a long time and are totally thwarted when they’ve realised that some of it is going to be used to pay for their elderly relatives care.

I’ve come across situations recently where relatives, on looking into the fair deal, have persuaded the old person to stay at home instead of going into a safe place, on the promise that they will take care of them.

They terrorise them with tales of all their possessions having to be sold and all kinds of bullshit hardship.

Just to preserve their own entitlement.

One thing to consider is the additional costs outside of the fair deal scheme which can be substantial esp. when you dont live near a hospital so make sure you are aware of these. Weekly activities (bingo etc), prescriptions, travel costs for hospital appointments, general charges, hairdressing, nails etc. All these together actully add up to a tidy sum per month on top of other fees and arent considered when doing the calculations.

He doesn’t owe the state anything. The debt has been lifted off him. He can then leave the house he inherited to anyone he likes, but that person will have to allow the original debt to go out of the estate before he or she benefits from it. Why would anyone worry about something that’s going to happen after they’re dead?!? Dead people don’t own anything.

Depressive people have a different view of the world. Your point is rationally correct- but those folks are not rational.

My mother enjoys all of these things and the only bill she’s had to pay so far is €25 each time she has the chiropodist. We’ve actually made a few voluntary donations to the home to be passed on to the groups who come to entertain, apparently out of the goodness of their hearts.

When you’re scoping out a home with/for your parent don’t be afraid to ask them what the fair deal does and doesn’t cover. If they’re going to be charging extra for entertainment and laundry and toiletries then have a discussion about that before you decide.

“But it’s not fair” is the cri de couer of the believer in the Magic Money Tree.

There should be a limit of what the state can take. Take the JA or non contributory pension. Every means test DISREGARDS the family home. There is sizable amount of the population who think there should be no property tax on the family home. Why is this thing different? The situation of the family members are not properly taken care of. This Fair Deal is deeply flawed in that way.

That makes very little sense. If we use the same criteria on JA as on FD, folks on JA can still live in their houses. They only accumulate some debt- which they can repay when they are back in a job. Was the talk here not about paying our dues to society? Not getting everything "for free"?

I think you don't understand how the mind of depressive people works. In his mind the son will worry about the debt for the rest of his life.He will keep thinking that people can come and throw him out of the house because of the unpaid debt. It does not matter what you tell him. But it does matter what he thinks or feels himself. And he might do very stupid things normal people would not do. I still think that the very specific situation of the family members should be taken into proper consideration. A one for all rule is not fair.

I am not talking about avoiding payments where people clearly have no issues to stop them from paying. I am talking about a son who lives in the family home together with the father. It is HIS home as well. He is not living anywhere else.

I’m a civil servant.

I’ve no idea why you think I’m on DA.

People on working age SW payments don’t include their homes in the means test because they need somewhere to live. People in nursing homes have found somewhere else to live and if they decide to return home they can, no problem and their contract with fair deal is paused until they’ve died.

Your theory as to how people on means tested payments should be entered into a fair deal type program wherein the state should recoup whatever they were paid in their lifetime after their death falls at the first hurdle.

The basic premise of SW allowances is that claimants are means tested and found to be so poor that they need a weekly payment in order to be kept alive.

In the vast majority of cases they are in state funded housing or otherwise not living in a house they own. They will have less than €20000 savings and pretty much no income at all. They are disabled, sick or injured, they are parenting alone they are caring full time for someone and they are unemployable. So what exactly are you hoping to recoup from their estate after they die?

Assets stripped?!? You describe this as stripping of someone’s assets?!?

"Why the hell should I pay for your parent's care just so you can get a nice inheritance?"

Why the hell should you pay for your neighbours parents care, who never saved a penny or bought any assets?

It's a question of fairness, that all elderly people are treated the same as regards cost of nursing home care, if needed.

As it is, you have one group subsidising the others.

Here’s a really good idea. Take your elderly person into your own home and look after them. Or move in with them and take care of them.

You can pay home helps to come and give some professional care every day.

Or find them a nice nursing home and pay for it weekly.

You don’t have to apply for the fair deal at all.

How does that sound?