2023 RWC Buildup, Squads, Fixtures 'etc'

Kermit.de.frog · 01-10-2023 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180465#Comment_121180465

Outside of the 6 nations, Australia (for now given Union seems to be in terminal decline there), Argentina, New Zealand, South Africa and maybe Fiji - I think everyone would accept that is the real tournament. There is no competition beyond this.

Buddy Bubs · 01-10-2023 12:21pm

What is the equivalent of an 80 point beating in other sports? As in how uncompetitive the match is? We've seen a few 70, 80 and 2 90 point matches.

I was thinking about this yesterday compared to soccer. Soccer much more difficult to score than rugby at all levels, and setting up defensively can be seen as a clever strategy to maybe grab a draw. Can't do that in rugby.

So I decided in my own head that tries are twice as common as goals, so a 4 try to none win is like a 2-0 soccer win. Subjective I know. And probably factually incorrect. But just the nature of rugby games on average having more scores than soccer.

An 80 point score in rugby likely has 12 or 13 tries. Cut this in half and you're at 6 or 7. Sometimes the minnows get a try so it's like a 6-0 or 7-1 match something like that. And a 40 point win likewise would be a 3 goal win as regards how competitive the match is.

How often does 6 or 7 goals happen in a soccer world cup? Probably once, maybe twice a tournament. 3 goal wins, probably 6 times. A guess.

So rugby is certainly more uncompetitive at world cups. Mainly down to the bottom quarter of teams getting hammered multiple times, until Italy turned what should really be a 40 point game into almost 100.

It's also a fact that in rugby once a game is running away from you it's nearly impossible to muster the effort required to stem the tide, you need to attack to defend, in soccer you can crowd the goal mouth and stop things getting worse.

01-10-2023 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180487#Comment_121180487

I don't think NZ v Fra, Ireland v SA were pointless. I doubt England found it pointless, topping their group. Argentina and Australia, the later gone, had very meaningful games. Fiji definitely aren't finding it pointless. Also smaller nations celebrating a victory at the sport's biggest competition.

01-10-2023 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180489#Comment_121180489

Same as any competition, Gaelic Games, even soccer. France, Croatia, Argentina etc all the usual suspects at the quarter finals. And a surprise team. Bit like rugby, Japan, Fiji the surprise. Though in fairness the surprise team in soccer can come from anywhere. But gaelic football is a closed shop. Since 2003, 20 years, you had Cork, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry, Tyrone win the AI. In a 32/33 team competition.

In rugby you had England, SA, NZ Since 2003. A competitive Australia up to 2015, a competitive France in 2007, 2011.

01-10-2023 12:35pm

In Gaelic Football the most exciting break throughs were Fermanagh reaching the semi in 2004 and Wexford in 2008.

FrancieBrady · 01-10-2023 12:47pm

How many teams are in the GAA World Cup?

Kermit.de.frog · 01-10-2023 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180524#Comment_121180524

You expect the best to be in the finals in all sport but also that the group stages are competitive, that the no hopers can actually get big results, get shocks.

Look at Saudi Arabia beating Argentina in the World Cup for example. There are numerous examples. The small sides just seem to have a better chance of an upset which will make more people take the time to watch one sided games.

Whereas in Rugby there is no chance. We obviously can't compare like with like and it could be just the nature of the game makes a comeback extremely difficult which is an excellent point made above.

Still, for the biggest competition in world rugby the group stages haven't been competitive for the smaller nations. Even if they lose it should be more competitive than it is.

I don't know what the answer is. The smaller nations don't get the games in between against better sides and are then landed in the WC.

It seems like the bet is they'll get more exposure for the game at home just from being there which is true - but it's countered by all the hidings unfortunately.

thebaz · 01-10-2023 12:59pm

The 99 WC produced a few shocks - Samoa beat the hosts , Wales.

We lost to Argentina , and France beating New Zealand in quarters , one of the best games I've seen.

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180524#Comment_121180524

Its not the same as any competition.

Wheres the equivalent of Romania, Namibia, Chile and Portugal competing for the top GAA trophies?

Even the next layer above those are complete cannon fodder.

01-10-2023 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180636#Comment_121180636

Until last year Leitrim, London, New York were in the Sam.

01-10-2023 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180595#Comment_121180595

Well summed up. The nature of rugby is if your better the scores pile on. A secondary competition might be needed like the Joe McDonagh in hurling, Tailteann in football.

pixelburp · 01-10-2023 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180400#Comment_121180400

In the 6 nations, only two of the unions are in rude health. There's a not unreasonable argument that it's not the elite competition it thinks it is, and may find that disparity grow as Italy, England Wales and Scotland continue to tread water with their various problems. Nothing that can't be walked back but they all have various degrees of "trouble". Even Ireland is probably only a couple of bad generations from anonymity.

The irony of the "24 teams is madness" argument is if my math and presumption is correct, there'd be fewer potential mismatches given there'll be groups of 4 this time. It might help lessen the sense of one cricket score after another, given the group stage would be shorter - and easier to schedule.

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180606#Comment_121180606

None of those are shock results.

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180640#Comment_121180640

And now they arent. A sensible decision made to create a lower tier championship.

Yet rugby seems to be talking about adding more teams.

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180661#Comment_121180661

Or you could reduce it to 16 or 12 and have even less mismatches again.

Its hard to imagine how bad 4 teams below Romanias level would be.

thebaz · 01-10-2023 1:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180662#Comment_121180662

??? - you musnt have watched

Ireland were heavy favourites , Argintina were tier 2

NZ were heavy overall favourites .

Samoa were tier 2 , defeating the host tier 1 nation.

FrancieBrady · 01-10-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180678#Comment_121180678

Robbie you are comparing a world cup to a domestic competition.

Doesn't compute.

World Rugby need to make some adjustments, but that is all. There is a balance to competition and developing teams to be struck.

GAA can't settle on a domestic competition structure so is hardly in a position to throw stones.

Neil3030 · 01-10-2023 1:42pm

Due to its complexity and its requirement for power and size, rugby will always offer a disproportionate advantage to countries that have a large playing population and/or well funded and well resourced youth development.

Tier 2 nations want more games against Tier 1. Fair enough, you respect that. But Italy have been guaranteed 4+ Tier 1 opponents per year for nearly a quarter of a century and they just got beaten by 80 points.

Simply playing better teams will only help so much. It won't suddenly make your locks 6"8. It won't suddenly make your props 130kg with an engine. It won't suddenly give your pack the stamina of the top sides. It won't give your players the knowhow to instinctively run support lines for offloads. It won't suddenly give you a suffocating blitz defense. It won't make you handle the ball better under pressure, etc.

Rugby is inherently unfair to weaker sides. The tables can only turn if playing numbers increase alongside vastly improved resources. It's clear that nobody at the top level of administration wants equity beyond its current distribution, which might reflect pragmatism as much as it reflects greed and self interest.

That said, hats off to what NZ/Aus have done with their league to get Pacific Island teams access to top tier club rugby.

pickarooney · 01-10-2023 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180492#Comment_121180492

It's a pointless comparison. There's no target to hit or keeper to beat in rugby. Once you break the defensive line you'll score.

pixelburp · 01-10-2023 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180692#Comment_121180692

Which is what WR propose as a replacement to the autumn series, so you're getting your wish if they have their way. The two elite tournaments merged plus a couple of invites.

And as I said unless you offer the rest a meaningful path and aspiration to the top tier then world rugby dies from a total lack of entry. It's already dying in some Tier 1 nations and a closed shop and the quality mismatch is the end result of decades of proper tournament management.

You may not like it but Uruguay etc got here on merit, and they're trying to form a path towards better results. They're doing all the right things and need support, not closed doors.

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180729#Comment_121180729

I see an awful lot of parallels between the hurling competitions and the rugby world cup.

Similar issues with developing the sport as well as maintaining reasonable competition.

GAA is still tweaking it and there is still a debate about letting teams from the second competition compete for the top trophy, but I think it very nearly has the balance right.

Rugby doesnt appear to have the balance any where near right. None of the cannon fodder in the world cups seem to be improving an iota.

FrancieBrady · 01-10-2023 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180775#Comment_121180775

How freaking long did it take a small domestic league to get it only probably right?

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180799#Comment_121180799

There wasnt a whole lot wrong with it in the past either. It evolved from knock out to back door to round robin.

So do you think rugby have it right?

Or anywhere near right?

Do you think a tweak to increase to 24 is a good idea?

pixelburp · 01-10-2023 1:58pm

Given they seem to be the poster boys for shutting the door, here's one article on Romania rugby's woes - and why by rights they had the valid claim to join the 5 nations.

Seems like unlike the South American sides there's less of a long term, joined up thinking. Maybe it's time for a professional Tier 2 pan European league to work as feeders to the national teams. It's not like the Schengen alone isn't there to make it easier and cheaper to travel across the continent.

https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/it-is-really-difficult-to-watch-because-i-know-many-of-these-guys-and-they-are-good-people/

robbiezero · 01-10-2023 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180719#Comment_121180719

Japan beating SA was a shock.

The others are just teams beating ones ranked a handful of places above them.

France beating NZ might be a surprise but hardly a shock.

FrancieBrady · 01-10-2023 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180810#Comment_121180810

No, they will address it. Meanwhile we have a fascinating competition to be getting on with.

01-10-2023 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180678#Comment_121180678

It's only 1 year ago the decision was made, nothing for thee GAA to boast about with an annual competition. The RWC is every 4 years so you're not getting evidence of mis matches every year. One word you wouldn't associate with the GAA is progressive, and I've played both codes, one at county level.

Dubinusa · 01-10-2023 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179327#Comment_121179327

You make very good points. But world rugby isn't very wealthy. Seriously, the sport is fairly minor in comparison to other sports.

This world cup has been a farce. Romania probably couldn't win the Leinster senior cup. Namibia are awful too! It's really not a good look having sides ship very heavy defeats. I think they should do the tournament similarly to the u20's, 12 teams. Then have a secondary tournament for the tier 2's. The 12th ranked team gets demoted and the winner of the 2nd tournament gets promoted.

To help sides like Namibia, why not get them into the currie cup? They would face decent opposition consistently. For the likes of Romania, it's difficult to see what would help them. Portugal and Spain are both better teams and look to have scope to improve.

The sport has gone backwards. This world cup has been gash. Very little good coming from it.

01-10-2023 2:08pm

I don't recall many of the posters, so concerned with the structure of the World Cup, posting a good word about Ireland beating one of the game's two powerhouses last week. Irish men on an Irish team punching way above their weight. I love all sports and can't understand petty resentments. I wish our soccer team was doing better. We're blessed to have so many great sports to follow, hurling, football, soccer, rugby, horse racing, athletics etc.

gameoverdude · 01-10-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180852#Comment_121180852

Seriously? Ireland just played 15 men behind the ball.

2023 RWC Buildup, Squads, Fixtures 'etc'

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