Cyclists' responsibility for their own safety *warning* infractions given liberally for trolling etc

Are you suggesting that drivers aren't killing three or four people each week?

Or are you playing some pedantic word game to fulfil some obligation to your cult to protect them from the harsh reality of drivers killing three or four people each week?

I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't tell you which drivers will the be the ones to kill three or four people each week. It may not be three or four this week. It could be one or two, or it could be five or six, but on average, drivers are killing three or four people each week. You can play whatever word games you like. They don't change the facts.

It is a fact though, that drivers are killing three or four people each week on Irish roads.

Your taking of offence on this doesn't change the facts.

What definition of culpability are you using for that 70% statistic you quoted?

So both retro-reflective material, and matt back clothing is equally visible, and it's only drivers observation that's the issue? Got it.

The Free Speed survey is total massaged nonsense to be honest.

Unknown locations, good weather, no other traffic, straight roads, no hills, intersections, 5.30am-7:30am.

Yes drivers speed, a high percentage too, but the experiment was specifically designed to inflate numbers.

I genuinely don't think that enforcement alone is, or ever will be enough to limit road deaths.

Enforcement will never target vulnerable road users, who (as per the thread title) do have a responsibility to their own safety, as it's repeatedly derided as victim blaming.

Look at how the Construction industry tackled deaths. They brought in mandatory Safe Pass training for everyone on a site, in 2001 or so.

Enforcement is no good if someone is dead, and noone intends to go out and kill someone, so enforcement isn't much of a deterrent IMO.

I'd love to see data on how many penalty points drives who have caused fatalities have, I'd bet it's no more than average.

It IS a fact though. Drivers are killing three or four people each week, regardless of how fervently you deny this.

The irony of saying enforcement doesn't work in this thread. Is that the driver who should have been in custody and not on the road anyway. Was stopped at a check point and let continue, even though driver and car were not legal on the road. Then killed someone. Drove on and hid the car.

Enforcement is definitely not going to work if you don't do it.

Accuse all you like. None of it changes the fact that drivers are killing three or four people each week on our roads.

My point stands.

A) I said "enforcement alone" ie: in conjunction with training.

B) I never said enforcement doesn't work. I said it wasn't a deterrent - which it clearly isn't. (Unless the place was plastered with cameras, which I'm totally in favour btw.)

C) In any case, the HSA have serious powers, and yet, they are still dishing out fines all the time for non compliance. Doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent, does it?

I've done it multiple times, albeit over 10 years ago. It was a day well spent each time I thought.

Enforcement, of any crime, is far less effective than education, because people don't believe they will be caught. Look at the M7 Average Speed cameras - they still catch dozens of people every day. Does that translate into fewer road deaths? Hard to tell - depends on the reason for the fatal collision. Having 6 points on your license won't stop you pulling out in front of someone you didn't see.

I was in the US last weeks. The place was absolutely crawling with police (border town). Two cars which passed me speeding on the motorway were pulled. Didn't register with people whatsoever, they kept the speed up. Few miles later, another car pulled. It was comical nearly. Probably saw 7/8 stops in 2.5 hours. They're enforcing laws, rightly enough, but the drivers haven't a clue. Their driving test is a joke.

We don't have education in Ireland either, 12 lessons and then 35 minutes pottering around a local town is wholly inadequate, particularly in the context of most deaths occurring on our rural road network. To dismiss education based on that is wrong. Look at countries with the lowest road deaths - education and training is absolutely key to the whole agenda of road safety, coupled of course to road design, and enforcement too.

It's the same in other types of criminal justice, workplace management, schooling, etc. - education over disciplinary action every time. Why is enforcement the #1 in road safety only?

I've answered your question three times. Do I need to repeat it a fourth time?

And this from a lad who complains about generalisations! You crack me up Seanie.

This adds more weight to the argument for mandatory hiviz panels on all cars. Clearly, the current level of reflectors aren't effective.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if a phone was involved, but it's worth noting that people were horsing their cars into stationary police cars long before mobile phones were common. Here's a paper from 2002 on the subject: (PDF) An analysis of 'looked but failed to see' accidents involving parked police vehicles (researchgate.net).

Quick, let's get more hiviz for cyclists, quick quick.

Doesn't really matter what lane it was in. Hiviz panels would have made it much more visible than the dark blue surface.

When are drivers going to take responsibility for their own safety, but putting hiviz panels on all sides of their vehicles, and wear hiviz clothing going to and from their vehicles and while driving?

What kind of hiviz panels were fitted to the car?