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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    That pretty much covers most of global nuclear power...

    On your regular tirades against nuclear, you never say whether you think the problems with this power source are inherent in the design? Certainly nuclear has been beset by long delays and high costs. But you never seem to have any interest in whether these issues can be fixed. Most nuclear advocates believe the solutions are design standardisation and regulatory streamlining.

    Given that renewables can't work, do you have any other low-carbon alternatives?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,204 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    You know your phone or laptop that you're posting on boards with requires these minerals too?

    And pretty much everything you buy is causing pollution somewhere.

    Where do you get your clothes? Massive polluter.

    Or is only when it comes to green energy and EVs that you're concerned about sustainability?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    GLOBAL lubricant consumption in the wind energy sector is estimated to be between 35 kilotonnes to 40 kilotonnes in 2015. That's about 3% of the 1,461 ktoe of wind energy produced in Ireland in 2019.

    Most of those lubricants will be sealed in long service intervals of 7-10 years. Which suggests against leaks.

    As turbine oil isn't subject to the same sort of heat and combustion and combustion products as motor oil it's not going to be anywhere near as carcinogenic.


    Technology marches on. You can get recyclable turbine blades etc.

    Solar cells keep getting cheaper in real terms. Silicon is being chased by extremely thin film cells waiting to be commercialised which use very little material, there's also cells that use cheaper materials and dye based cells that can be printed with inkjets. (IMHO Perovskite will continue in development hell until they can work for decades rather than months.)


    A reminder that while the hydrogen storage scheme the ESB are looking is only 40% efficient it's to use surplus renewables would only be going to waste. More importantly it's equivalent to the entire global production of lithium batteries in the last decade.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭riddles


    But you can’t say that the solution lies in **** cows and replacing diesel cars and reducing people to live in cold houses. The woke / green agenda fails at the start as they fail to frame the problems correctly. We get platitudes and virtue signalling as the proposed solutions are largely BS.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    How is advocating upgrading houses with insulation and PV and heat pumps advocating for cold homes ? It's the opposite.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Just Stop Oil.

    Yeah, like right now, in the middle of your flight!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    It's not anger, your a big boy now so make some big boy decisions for yourself. You really imagine I care what you choose to do ? Just to be clear the response was to someone accusing me of dictating choices to them - show me where I have dictated anyones choices.

    Just grow up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    I had thought of responding to some of the assumptions/assertions in his biased post (capt midnight) but there are some clear red flags so i didnt bother.

    Using the word Hydrogen is one of them. It is futile to argue w a person who ignores the full picture and is on the road of 'technology will solve the problems' concerning green tech while AT THE SAME TIME playing down tech advances on anything to do with oil and nuclear and ignoring the role of politics.

    It is clear he wants to play the role of witness for the prosecution in an imaginary court without a judge. Well, the witnesses in the other side are piling up over time. You can only spread mis- and disinformation for so long.

    We have seen it on Covid18 measures. We are seeing it in regards to Ukraine and w the climate debate.

    Reality hurts..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    It's this thread down to a tee.

    Nuclear is a big no because:

    • limited resources such as copper and lithium uranium to use for production/fuel
    • 30GW offshore wind a single digit multi GW reactor is "too big" for our grid to handle
    • the concept of grid scale hydrogen storage has very promising prospects and Ireland could be the pioneers in that regard nuclear SMR's are only in concept stage at this point and not proven at scale so should not be considered full stop
    • we can use excess available renewable generation to produce hydrogen for storage we simply couldn't manage the excess nuclear energy produced when supply exceeds demand
    • if we install "enough" wind then there'll always be wind somewhere we need multiple reactors for backup as all-eggs-in-one-basket is far too risky, doesn't make any sense
    • we could become the pioneers of an all renewable grid in Europe we don't have a nuclear industry
    • we can't afford not to pay whatever is needed to get to 100% renewables the costs are far too unpredictable to make nuclear in any way viable
    • we can make use of storage and interconnection during those extended periods of cold, still weather or when the wind is too strong for turbines to safely operate nuclear plants (like any other thermal plant) don't work well in extremes of weather (that we typically get) so should not be considered as an option.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Framing is a wonderful thing. You can attempt to screw an argument any way you wish if you frame it in a clever enough way.

    Green hydrogen is not a real contender despite what the government may imagine, it's an unnecessary expensive distraction only suitable for niche applications. By focusing on hydrogen as a critic of renewables ignores the reality that greentech is diverse, evolving and in production at a massive scale. Batteries are advancing in efficiency, capacity and chemistry every year - they are the future. New generations of batteries are removing the rare minerals from their chemistry driving down manufacturing costs.

    Meanwhile there are literally a handful of nuclear power plant manufacturers, and for reasons of complexity and security this will always be the case. The chances of them been able to ramp up production to meet our climate needs are vanishingly small. Every single project is beset with delays, complexities and massive cost overruns. Coupled to this those who cry about the damage done by rare earth minerals mining are happy to see mining for one of the rarest and most polluting minerals imaginable - uranium. On top of this, uranium is a finite resource with a peak supply curve that will see it become increasingly scarce and expensive in the future - especially given the proposed ramp up in demand to supply this new fleet of reactors. Then there is the totally unproven technology of fast breeder reactors who are supposed to solve all these issues.

    As I have said before nuclear is the answer for people who don't think there is a climate crisis to solve. It is dead because fortunately policy makes do see the insurmountable issues it faces and why it cannot address the climate crisis in a timely enough period to be useful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    It's not framing to put what happens regularly on this thread side-by-side, it's comparing two different energy sources through the same set of criteria. That you're trying to summarise that as some sort of climate denying exercise starts to show that this is not about logic and reason at all, nor does it appear it's ultimately about reducing climate-changing emissions as quickly as we can. At the end of the day what's being argued here is the input energy source and:

    • Either our grid can safely take tens of gigawatts of (what would ultimately be excess) energy at a given time or it can't
    • Either hydrogen and BESS are suitable as intermediary storage mediums to bridge gaps or they're absolutely awful unthinkable concepts
    • Either we are happy to build our grid's future on a mere concept or we're not
    • Either we're collectively happy to write a blank cheque to get where we want to be at any costs or we're not.

    And if, just by changing the input energy source, you get two completely opposing outcomes from the exact same set of criteria, then I can't think of a better word than you have put it - framing - because it's certainly not an argument made on the basis of logic or reason and neither is it a cause where reducing climate change is the sole focus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,554 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Is this the start of the dip in EV sales as the incentives are being phased out?

    I see VW are now offering 0% finance on their EV range in an effort to boost sales



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The problem is even if your two choices were equal nuclear cannot address our climate issues in a reasonable timeframe. It a none runner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    There is absolutely nothing to suggest there is any guarantee renewables can do so either. Thus, under your criteria, renewables are a non-runner also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,040 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Renewables are incremental and cumulative, they start saving emissions the day they are brought online and since new projects can be brought on line in a year or two they contribute to a progressive reduction in national emissions. There is no need to wait 20 years before they start reducing our emissions as there is with nuclear.

    When you have only a few decades to make a significant difference you cannot afford to wait decades for the first watts of carbon neutral electricity to come online.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    I have made my choices and am happy Im doing my best in the context of available and affordable choices and my many competing priorities. IMO this pulpit banging and preaching fire and brimestone to those who dont strictly adhere to a prescribed doctrine does more harm than good unless youre going to take the ultimate big stick approach and ban everything you don't like. Likelihood of success?



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Yes. It has pointed out again and again: if you assume a neutral position and leave out the debate about a climate emergency for a moment and just focus on inputs, outputs, existing and possible future technologies, no system engineer, energy analyst would ever present a scheme in which you would upscale inefficient technologies to replace efficient ones. Your proposal, paper, system will be analysed and rejected by all the proper experts in their field, just like a faulty design of say a bridge. It will collapse.

    So; in order for nonsense to proceed you need a: an emergency, b: constant alarm and c: a fascist type of system in which the state colludes with the media to put down any resistance. It needs a solid, reliable wall that can withstand pressure.

    Well folks, cracks have appeared. The light of truth is getting in. Over time the cracks will turn to gaping holes for everyone to see. The alarmists are panicking and want/need ironclad laws and compliance mechanisms. But reality bites. Doubt will undermine them. Many people are now on the 'not sure about climate alarm' list. Putting them down as 'victims of far right conspiracy theorists'and 'climate change deniers' might play well in their circle of friends but will simply irritate most people as it should. The climate has already dropped down the list of important issues. The alarmists fascist state will not happen. Wake up!



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    This is a very crude calculation TBH. Just getting the CO2 emissions from directly burning the fuel in the car, is only some of the CO2 it takes to explore, extract, refine and transport the fuel for each car.

    You can add an additional 30% to the CO2 emissions for every litre of fuel burnt during the lifetime of the vehicle for the extraction and processing of the fuel before it gets to the car.

    https://innovationorigins.com/en/producing-gasoline-and-diesel-emits-more-co2-than-we-thought/

    And that doesn't include the more esoteric emissions, like the wars that are fought to secure oil supplies releasing billions of tonnes of CO2 in the process, or the methane that leaks from old oil and gas wells for centuries after the wells are shut down because they're no longer profitable.

    Again, it is all down to how many miles a car is driven. With ICE cars, the more miles the car is driven, the more emissions it will emit, so it is better to get the high milage users off ICE and onto BEVs as the first priority. With BEVs, most of the emissions are in the manufacturing and recycling phase, so it is better for low milage ICE owners to keep their ICE cars for longer, and allow the new BEVs to be driven by high milage users in the initial ramping up phase, with older less efficient ICE cars aging out as the BEV used market begins to mature, so that ultimaely, all vehicles will be zero emissions vehicles powered off fully renewable energy grids.

    This is why higher Fuel costs are the best way to migrate from ICE to BEV. It incentivises those who drive the most, to migrate first. They'll save a fortune in fuel and then they'll upgrade their vehicles as technology improves leaving those cars available to the used BEV market where they can replace old retiring ICE vehicles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Ah, yes, the 'Ireland Is full' argument

    How surprising to see it used by those on the anti climate action side of the debate.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Thats a false dichotomy

    Most people are not in the market for a new car

    That's the same now as it has always been. When people are buying a new car, the choice is between a new BEV, or a new ICE car.

    While the BEV may cost more upfront the cost of ownership is so much lower, that for anyone more than, say, 20k KMs per year, they'll save way more in running costs than they save in the lower upfront price for the ICE car.

    Now that there is finally some competition in the BEV market, the prices of new BEVs are coming down rapidly, and there are now perfectly good BEV options at reasonable price points with good range for any segment in the new car market.

    If you're not in the New car market, the Used car market is starting to see value too, with BEVs with usable range for most people now starting to breach the 10k price point for 6/7 year old cars



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    Interesting that those on the other side of that artifical divide consider there is no accommodatuon crisis in Ireland. Own door accommodation available to all, please sign up



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,248 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Threadban lifted after assurances provided over future posting



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The Barryroe saga limps on

    RTE news : Goodman firm to inject up to €6.35m into Barryroe





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭randomname2005


    Absolutely, agree with most of what you said. It is a very crude (oil) level calculation but just wanted to get the idea across that there will be cases where people replace an ice car with a Bev due to running costs and taxes, when it is not the best thing from an emissions perspective. We need to make sure we don't ramp up taxes so quickly that we indirectly force cars off the road before they come close to the breakeven point.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    What tech advances in nuclear ??

    The new EPR's are ~15% more efficient (but way more expensive) than the previous generation that was competing with old-coal power stations. Back when those old-coal stations had around four times the emissions of modern CCGT plants.

    This means when old-coal was displaced by CCGT you are already getting 75% of the maximum possible emission saving nuclear could give. And that's a fictional nuclear that could load follow like CCGT and would be built on time.

    Check out how many nuclear countries still kept coal and only phased it out when gas got cheap. In that very real sense nuclear's ineffective at emissions reduction.

    Nuclear only provides ~10% of global electricity, less than the 14% incandescent bulbs used to use. Energy saving bulbs did more than nuclear will ever do.

    There's 90 years worth of uranium reserves left which will drop rapidly if you start using nuclear to provide more than the ~3% of primary energy it currently provides. We've been throwing money at breeding fuel in reactors since 1944 as in "we're low on copper, would you like 14,700 tons of silver ?" money and still only stretch existing fuel by a lot lower than unity and doing so requires massive amounts of reprocessing so don't expect plutonium or thorium to


    The technical advances in gas turbines apply to oil, gas, biogas and hydrogen. The big turbine makers say that by 2030 their big turbines will be able to run on pure hydrogen. You can buy smaller ones today or co-fire with natural gas.

    The technical advances in oil and gas extraction are a story of diminishing returns where a greater fraction of the fuel itself is used in the extraction. If fuel companies were taxed on the fuel that was consumed before it got to the pipelines there'd be a jump in prices. Things like underground fires / oil sands have huge overheads.


    Hydrogen is technically doable. Like I said 40% efficiency. It's rubbish. The main attraction is that it can provide months of grid scale storage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There is practically nobody in this country who does not feel housing is a huge issue in Ireland.

    Blaming immigration is just the lazy way of looking at the problem



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    So we dont fix the serious under provision of housing for our existing population and choose to bury our heads in the sand with fingers jammed deep into our ears when any discussion on the impacts of significant immigration on that housing problem? Typical Irish solution to an actual real problem currently facing the residents of this little county of ours.



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