General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

Has there never been such an example? Have you listened to the audio from every single controversial VAR decision to conclude that Saturday was unique?

I can tell you what makes me annoyed. I have pointed out systematic problems with VAR, including the lack of professionalism, the matey comments from Dean, the lack of diversity in recruitment of referees, the absence of a performance culture etc., and it was ignored, but, suddenly, because Liverpool were on the wrong end of a decision, VAR is bad.

It bothers me that getting rid of VAR is being considered a solution.

VAR as a concept is a good one - having access to more data shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing.

But having one organisation implement and execute it doesn’t work, and has led to the referees being a law unto themselves.

Would separate organisations work? PGMOL manage matchday refereeing, training etc, with a separate organisation that manages the VAR procedures and post match reviews - a sort of refereeing regulator.

Here's a list of all of the PGMOL statements where they have admitted they fecked up. None have the example on Saturday where the VAR was telling the ref to give a goal as his lineman was wrong. But he assume they were saying not to give it.

This has to change the wording for future cases or else the same thing will keep happening over and over again and we will have wrong decisions again and again again.

Leave the clubs out of it, and it's easier to talk about VAR.

I agree, leave the clubs out of it.

Take from cricket and rugby which have had video refereeing for much longer and have standard protocols in place. Everyone knows what everything means, no mates chatting, no confusion.

How many times have you heard the rugby VAR say "You may award the try"? Simple, straightforward, concise and absolutely clear.

Definitely need different people in the VAR room as it's a different skillset. The assumption that the best on-field referees would also be the VAR referees was always flawed thinking. Akin to Argentina sending Messi to be their player in an e-sports soccer contest.

Someone who can instinctively work out the best of 20 available angles to spot a potential handball, or notice an incident in the build-up to a goal may be a terrible on-field referee (fitness, lack of control over players maybe) but a brilliant VAR.

You keep believing. Don't celebrate that league title just yet though!

Of course sporting integrity had been undermined. A clear and obvious goal was ignored ignores by the people responsible for implementing the rules. I don't think that means it will delibrate though. Sporting integrity can be undefined through incompetence. I watch watc lots of sports, and I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen a video assistant genuinely have no idea what just happened during a match. Like, where they even awake when the goal was scored? Where they even in the room? None of that has been explained.

Liverpool are perfectly entitled to ask those questions and expect answers.

Do you not realise that they won't bother reviewing the process unless they are forced into it by external pressure? PMGOL operate like this because they can and no one has really made any demands that they change. Arsenal should have done it last year.

But for some reason, Liverpool are being told they should just stfu and accept what's in place now. I think that's crazy personally.

I think we have went from refs and linesmen getting 98% of decisions correct with some controversial ones wrong, to VAR getting 99% of decisions right with some controversial ones wrong.

And to get that minimal increase we added layers of complexity and completely neutered any sense of celebration after a goal is scored. Well done everybody.

The sad fact is that they all are asking the wrong questions. Who said the point of VAR was to get more correct decisions? To get from 98% correct to 99% correct? The point of VAR was to reduce controversy, and it hasn't done that because it can never do it, subjective will remain subjective no matter how many levels of officials they have watching the game.

People giving out about Liverpool because they were on the receiving end of a wrong call and VAR inconsistencies.

If those lads' clubs had complained when they were on the receiving end of decisions, then maybe the wrong decisions wouldn't happen so much.

It's up to the clubs to force change. Change doesn't happen without some sort of catalyst.

Did Liverpool ever speak up when they benefitted from wrong VAR calls?

Just trying to get my head around it being for the greater good.

I think you missed the point

Going by the intense reaction I think this is the first time VAR has been used in a Liverpool game. Hence them only realising what 85% of people already have.

Liverpool fans have been complaining about VAR for years, same as all fans - I've no idea why people see it as such a mystery that fans would be particularly aggrieved when an entirely new way to fck up occurs. This is the first time match officials actually knew there was a huge game defining mistake immediately, but didn't have the basic common sense to rectify it on the spot. Of course people will have a renewed sense of "wtf?!"

The fact this has become fans of clubs bickering at each other, when no club is in any way at fault for anything here, is beyond me.

There is literally zero indication whatsoever that the club are looking for the result to be changed.

Getting annoyed about what random other fans elsewhere on the internet are posting about is beyond pointless. There will always be an endless stream of nonsense from fans of all clubs, all the time. It's a fools errand.

Nothing about the clubs official reaction or statement is in any way surprising.

The entire Premier League voted to stick with the current lines-drawing var system for this year. IMO a mistake (but also something which was not enacted on Saturday - on-screen lines were especially conspicuous by their absense).

As for escalation and resolution, that is what the requested investigation is for. If you have a problem with a procedure/process, you escalate it and look for a way to resolve future problems. Nothing about that indicates any desire for a change of result. It's basic problem/solution language.

I think there's a few in here who are following this playbook 😂

Loved that one myself.

Even if they don't release it to the public, they really have to release it to the involved parties - otherwise the lack of transparency removes any credibility. The precedent should always be transparency.

I thought Webb was going to appear on Monday Night Football. Probably need to wait for his monthly show with Michael Owen

The obvious difference between this and all those other errors that everyone - including liverpool - have suffered in the past, is that in this case the officials knew it was wrong immediately, and didn't rectify it. That's new. It wasn't someone making a subjectively bad call, it was a mess up in communication that they could have immediately fixed, but chose not to. I don't think there's corruption, but it is a pretty unprecedented level of incompetence and bad judgement.

I don't see the point in getting so upset that fans are still talking/complaining about it 48 hours later, especially when it's an ongoing story with updates coming out every few hours (the most recent being that the PGMOL are split on whether or not they should release the audio).

IMO the difference is more than that. Subjective errors will always happen. There will always be awful calls we don't agree with. But systems and process failures on this level should not be able to occur at this stage. It wasn't a bad decision on the football, it wasn't a mistake in subjective reasoning - the officials looked at it, saw that the goal was indeed perfectly fine, and then knowingly allowed the game to continue with the wrong scoreline. it was a fundamental failure of the system to do its most basic function.

I don't personally agree with the corruption allegations either - but ultimately that will always happen in some quarters when an information vacuum is left. The way the PGMOL have slowly meted out information piece by piece over the course of 2 days has invited criticism and allegations. That's on them. There's been no chance for this to blow over as there's a new piece of information every couple of hours.

And so what if fans are still annoyed after being screwed over in an entirely new and unfathomable way. What skin off your nose is that? Who cares? I'd have no problem with Brentford fans being pissed off for a few days either, that was also an atrocious call.