Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Seems that they have been rapidly increasing artillery shell production arms production over the last year, might be up to 2 million a year next year, well short of the 10mn they fire a year

Its far inferior to the West's ammunition but it has the advantage of actually being made and shipped to the front line.

The EU has been talking about giving Ukraine a million shells and building up to a million shells produced a year, slow and weak effort.

Every day that this is not concluded with a Ukrainian win is a little uptick in Russian chances of holding most of what they have long term.

Ukraine can be thankful for what it has received but will rightly also feel it was short changed to break the Russian war machine but leave Putin enough gains to keep in power and ensure Russian State stability.

Why have so many left Ukraine for Europe? Why has Zelensky had to make speeches asking people to return to Ukraine to fight? Why did he have to create a law to stop able bodied men leaving the country?

That doesn’t sound like a people who want to fight to the death

What do Ukrainians want?

You seem have swallowed hook line and sinker the idea that it is at the behest of "the west" that the Ukrainians want to defend themselves. Otherwise they would be happy to roll over, eh?

It the the stated policy of the Russians to cleanse the areas taken over of "anti Russian" leaders and officials. Lest there be any doubt this is through torture, rape murder and displacement. They are fathers, brothers, uncles, sons, mothers, sisters, aunts, and daughters

So your colleague wants others to fight and die for his freedoms?

Some people want to give into Putin to justify their own failure to tackle bullies in their own lives.

You know the drill. Should countries stop providing support for Ukraine and Russia were to get the upper hand and take a larger chunk of the country leaving a rump Ukraine as Putins puppet, the same posters would be on here decrying "war mongers goading Russia into further aggression" for insisting that a minimum standard of human rights is applied to Ukrainians in occupied territories.

Neotiate in “good faith” is not possible with Russia - a kleptocratic autocracy.

"Ukraine can be thankful for what it has received but will rightly also feel it was short changed to break the Russian war machine but leave Putin enough gains to keep in power and ensure Russian State stability"

Hurts to say it but maybe even Ukraine has an interest in Russian State stability?0

I think we may well do too -at least in something like a controlled collapse(seems to be coming one way or the other-such fools to imagine they can "elect" dictators and prosper)

(To your other point)Sure Ukraine may feel thankful for the support it has received but it would be entitled to 10 times as much anger and disillusion had it not been so supported.

We are supporting them in our own self interest.They are fighting a war that will mean we don't have to get our own hands dirty and bloody.

Millions and millions of Ukrainians have remained in Ukraine and are willing to fight. Not everyone is in a position to fight. They are the people who have left. The very same thing would happen in most major countries in the world if they were invaded. What a dis - informative post you have made there. Wonder what you’re trying to achieve by making such posts ??? 🤔

A Russian collapse in to chaos would likely be a century defining event.

Letting them hold ground shows the days of Pax Americana and the idea of the West enforcing global order, stability, a rule of law are nearly over.

That's a big thing as well,

There have always been conscientious objectors in wars, and cowards plain and simple, and their existence has never meant that the majority of people wouldn't fight to the death for a cause. In Ukraine's case, there must have also been a sizeable number of people who had always wanted to emigrate into an EU country, and their eyes lit up when they heard that the visa restrictions were scrapped. Those people couldn't get into the EU quick enough.

Would you be happy to have your wife/mother/daughter/sister gang-raped by Russian soldiers occupying your country in the name of "peace"?

Perhaps you have no women you care about in your life? If that's the unlikely case, maybe you'd be happy to be tortured or castrated by those same occupying Russian soldiers for that "peace"?

If not, why do you propose this as a valid option for Ukrainians?

To be fair with the the way drones are those 40/50/60 year olds could literally be using drones and taking out tanks etc. Not exactly on the front line but distance from it, so I say in years to come u could literally be in 1 part of the country and flying small drones and could be taking tanks out and would not need to be near the frontlines at all.