This week's EV bargain that I'm not buying

liamog · 03-10-2023 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188609#Comment_121188609

Pretty much where it should be priced and a decent car for that kind of cash

sh81722 · 03-10-2023 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189444#Comment_121189444

My thoughts exactly. It was supposed to be about that price before it didn't make it here "back in the day".

lafors · 03-10-2023 5:17pm

Looking at a second hand model s for myself and just wondering if ye would consider any of these two as good value?

First is a 2017 75D with 88k km for 38k

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/tesla/model-s/fpa/202309041534851?journey=Search

Second is a 2016 90D with 103k km for 35k

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/tesla/model-s/fpa/202305257760928?journey=Search

A lot seem to be hanging around this price. What do ye think? Bargain? Decent? OK? or Ripoff?

poker--addict · 03-10-2023 5:37pm

What's the deal with negotiating with garages? My feeling is they might move a few hundred but tend to not move more unlike a private sale? Tesla m3 35k

ELM327 · 03-10-2023 5:46pm

The S90D would be my pick of the above. My first Tesla was a similar S90D and could not speak higher of it. Tesla have their issues especially with customer service but most of the niggly problems with build quality issues and rattles etc were fixed in the S by the time of the facelift

MrMusician18 · 03-10-2023 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121111280#Comment_121111280

That's hard to say for sure. The residual value in the materials an EV is likely to keep the price floor relatively high. The fuel tank in an ice car can't be repurposed into static domestic energy storage in the same way EV batteries can.

fafy · 03-10-2023 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188609#Comment_121188609

Newmarket VW have 3 “Up!” 2023 models, pre registered 232 C, currently at the same price of €19,950

https://www.newmarketmotors.ie/used-vehicles/search/?make%5B%5D=Volkswagen&finance%5B%5D=price&fuel-type%5B%5D=Electric&budget-program%5B%5D=pay&section%5B%5D=199986&order=price&pageId=1769905

djan · 03-10-2023 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189987#Comment_121189987

I wouldn't be confident of the actual value of reusing EV batteries in domestic energy sources unless you are a DIYer. Comparing the a 2012 Nissan Leaf to an ICE Note of same year/mileage shows pretty even pricing. Domestic energy storage needs reliability and given its nature, frequent cycles which old batteries struggle with.

poker--addict · 03-10-2023 7:17pm

How many actually sold at 28k I wonder. For a few hundred more you would have been in territory with far more car, eg mg4

unkel · 03-10-2023 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121190265#Comment_121190265

There is plenty of use of batteries out of end of life EVs, the ones in the Leaf are probably the worst example, but still popular. Generally these batteries sell for quite a high value as many buyers are fighting over them, wanting them for all sorts of projects like home storage or conversions of cars / motorbikes

But you are right, this is not for the faint of heart. You'd need to be a fairly experienced and confident DIYer to take a project like this on.

User1998 · 04-10-2023 3:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189775#Comment_121189775

Nothing on Carzone is a bargain. You’ll only find bargains on Donedeal or Facebook from private sellers.

djan · 04-10-2023 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121190433#Comment_121190433

Given the limited use cases for them as we agreed that it's more a DIY situation, I don't think it will prop up the values. Looking at the 2nd hand market if anything, low range EV prices are dropping like a stone. Ireland may be immune to some extent due to its small size and lower amounts of driven mileage but range degradation on 10+ year old cars with older battery tech is substantial which would offset much of the value in the cells.

unkel · 04-10-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193547#Comment_121193547

Old low range EVs dropping like a stone? I don't see it. A 2011 (6 year old) Leaf back in 2017 was about €5k. Now that same Leaf, 12 years old and with hugely less range, is still about €5k. No other car of similar age / value has had about zero depreciation over that period.

As for EV batteries, you could pick them up for half nothing 6-7 years ago. Now they fetch silly prices on eBay. A friend bought a Tesla Model S recently for €20k. If he wrote it off the next day, he could sell the 16 battery modules on eBay for $1000 each. The motor itself would also easily fetch $4000. Never mind the rest of the car and all other parts. That's an insanely high retained percentage of value between a perfectly fine car and a written off car.

User1998 · 04-10-2023 2:46pm

Honestly I think there are lots of cars that are extremely similar in value now compared to 6 years ago.

I think people forget how cheap cars were back then.

listermint · 04-10-2023 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193598#Comment_121193598

Who's going to take his car apart to get the modules out.

Tbh I think you put a large amount of value in your own hobby and how other people can/can't act as vehicle parts distributors.

In that scenario the vast majority of folks get the car written off insurance company pay out and they move on.

unkel · 04-10-2023 3:23pm

@listermint - "Who's going to take his car apart to get the modules out."

A 5 minute job to drop the battery. You obviously need a lift for it. Fairly easy to get the modules out then too. But you need to know what you are doing here of course. Of course I agree with you that this isn't for everyone. And insurance companies and dismantlers are now well aware of the very high rest value of EVs after they are written off. Unfortunately no more batteries to be had for a few hundred quid. I had to call in all sorts of favours to be able to buy a 9kWh PHEV pack from a scrappie for €1200, they weren't budging on €1500, which is near $200 per kWh, almost double what I pay for raw cells from China

jlang · 04-10-2023 3:45pm

If you don't mind asking - why would you deliberately pay twice as much for "scrap" EV batteries than what you'd be paying for cells from China? I assume there's an element of comparing apples v oranges.

djan · 04-10-2023 4:03pm

@unkel you are just proving my point that this is a very niche area. 99% of people will not be putting their car on a lift and taking it apart. Furthermore, there is numerous cars that have held if not increased in value over the past few years.

I would also consider the potentially massive risk of installing substantial amounts of batteries recovered from faulty/crashed EVs in a domestic set up. Even if just for the insurance issue as I don't think this would be certified work, nevermind the lifespan and reliability. Given that EV sales are going one way, and the price of batteries lowering as tech develops, EVs residuals will go down as normal.

warrior00 · 04-10-2023 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194069#Comment_121194069

I agree I wouldn't have used or crashed batteries installed in my house. Now I would install them in a shed out back away from the house but not in the house as the risk of fire is huge and it would spread really quickly with the batteries.

unkel · 04-10-2023 5:17pm

Installing any EV batteries in your house, even brand new, is madness. Unless they are LiFePO4 chemistry. The very reason why Tesla refused to install their power wall inside houses (but they would install on an outside wall or in a garage)

@djan - you don't seem to get my point. Whether you take out the battery yourself or if someone else does it, makes no difference. Everybody in the market is well aware of the very high residual value of EV battery modules. If you don't believe me, have a look on eBay yourself. A 9-10 year old second hand Tesla module is worth $800-900 or so and the car has 16 of those modules.

Casati · 05-10-2023 9:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194364#Comment_121194364

Forever there has been big money to be made in becoming a car dismantler - the value of every individual part in a banger like a VW Golf that a scappy buys for €400 quid might be €4000. It does'nt however mean that the scrap value of the car increases to anything near the €4000 as to set up as a dismantler of cars and sell the used parts requires you to get a licence, planning permission, meet environmental legislation etc. Obviously you would need business liability insurance as the risk of getting sued selling a faulty battery pack is a real risk - especially as you are likely to be selling it onto somebody not properly trained etc.

You might be prepared to take on all that risk in the same way I knew a fellow that made great money buying crashed Beemers, scrapping them and selling parts on ebay - until revenue came calling that is.

unkel · 05-10-2023 10:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196308#Comment_121196308

All good points and I would be divorced if I ever decided to part out a car from my driveway 😁

But in the case of a Tesla and its battery pack, drop your 10 year old written off Model S to a scrappy and I'd imagine they'll give you many thousands in cash. Drop your 10 year old Mercedes S-class or BMW 7-series off to the same scrappy and you might get a few hundred quid

Now is my point clear? 😁

djan · 05-10-2023 10:20am

Agree that with current demand for tesla packs their price is high but I don't see this continuing for too long as you can get much cheaper batteries elsewhere and a DIYer most certainly will shop around.

Considering that all other EVs have dropped in price similair to ICE cars I fail to see where this residual value in a battery will be in the future when you'll be getting 50EUR/kWh cells...

Casati · 05-10-2023 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196409#Comment_121196409

I would say your local scrap yard will give you whatever they think you might get from another scrap yard rather than the sum of the parts.

Very few if any e.v.'s in Ireland have made it that far so its too early to say either way, but you'd have to admit many scrap yards that are not trained in high voltage either cannot legally or wont want the hassle of breaking an ev, so at end of life your ev will likely have to go to a specialist. Any specialist who invests in setting up will want to make good margin.

Either way, buying a new or newish ev now, I dont think many buyers would really be considering what it might be worth at end of life - but would be trying to guess what it might be worth in 3 or 4 years - or however long they keep cars for on average

Casati · 05-10-2023 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121190222#Comment_121190222

Very decent affordable car for that money - obviously its a small car but in reality many people driving mini suv's dont have much more cabin space anyway. I imagine with a small battery and low weight they would be very economical to run too

liamog · 05-10-2023 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196527#Comment_121196527

The e-Up! feels very spacious on the inside, the car is barebones but in a way that works well, minimalist due to lack of stuff instead of by design.

unkel · 05-10-2023 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196519#Comment_121196519

All the big scrapyards do EVs and there are even specialised EV scrapyards!

fafy · 05-10-2023 7:00pm

there seems to be a big slowdown in speed of selling and a lot still looking for dreamworld pricing.

One i spotted a few. months back, it started at €28,500, has gradually dropped 6.5 k to €22 k, its still not a bargain, and high mileage, but amazed that people use words like : price drop, final price drop and now , “Selling Due to mortgage need to sell”

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/2019-bmw-i3s-high-spec-final-drop/34280873

ELM327 · 05-10-2023 7:01pm

I love laughing at "final price drop" in ads. Yeah mate no it isnt if no one still offers or views it because its still overpriced

unkel · 05-10-2023 7:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198870#Comment_121198870

In fairness he says he is open to offers. And indeed "selling due to mortgage need to sell". Current asking price is €22k, which is still too high, but chances are if you drop into him this evening with €18k, you might get it. And it would be a bargain at that. For reference, the cheapest asking price 120Ah i3 on DoneDeal is now €20k. And the cheapest overall i3, a 2014 60Ah is now €12.5k

This week's EV bargain that I'm not buying

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