Ireland v Scotland. Saturday 7th October. Stade DeFrance

04-10-2023 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192213#Comment_121192213

There's nothing to decide, the rules are clear, no confusion.

Section 2.3.

https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/35290

"For clarification, in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at criterion 1."

Jump_In_Jack · 04-10-2023 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192213#Comment_121192213

I think that was a prank, twitter post taken down since.

I think the twitter poster was saying the rules had been changed for Pool A so France would be through on points difference instead of losing out on head to head if they lost to Italy and drew on match points with Italy.

But the rules are still the rules for both Pool A and B, no matter how stupid the rules are.

They should have made the rule that the top 2 teams would be qualified by virtue of points difference as the first criterion for more than 2 teams on the same match points total. I presume it will be changed for the next world cup, as well as an update to say if you win all 4 matches you automatically top the group.

salmocab · 04-10-2023 10:00am

Was there a suggestion that the rules were changing mid tournament? That wouldn’t have even been discussed that would be a recipe for legal cases

04-10-2023 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192274#Comment_121192274

Technically, those are the 2019 rules (aside from anything else, I really hope the final tie-breaker isn't the world rankings as of October 14th, 2019). The 2023 rules are here: https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2023/05/03/fb8ea1ec-b3d9-46c6-933e-bdd1105e3bed/RWC-2023-Tournament-Rules.pdf, but yes, the tie-break rules have not changed apart from using the rankings at October 2nd 2023.

The social media posts were simply incorrect (or debatably just poorly-worded/ambiguous), and were subsequently taken down. The rules are clear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192302#Comment_121192302

They should have made the rule that the top 2 teams would be qualified by virtue of points difference as the first criterion for more than 2 teams on the same match points total. I presume it will be changed for the next world cup

Why would you presume that? They're the same rules as were in place for 2019, and 2015. Points difference in a three-way tie is not an objectively better way to do it than the current system. You could just as easily end up in a scenario where you are knocked out by a team that you beat in your head-to-head, but they ran up a monster score in an end-of-pool game against an already-eliminated Tier 3 team.

Jump_In_Jack · 04-10-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192508#Comment_121192508

If between the three tied teams they all have won one match and lost another, best rule is to use points difference to eliminate the team with the lowest points difference. Simple and logical. Whichever team goes out could claim a team they beat got through, so it's flawed to use that as a tie-breaker.

typhoony · 04-10-2023 11:16am

Scots are a strange bunch, listening to Jim Hamilton interviewing Stuart Hogg and if Ireland were playing France he would want France to win, he even has northern ireland relatives. Also they talked about which current Scottish players would get into the team and he offered Gilchrist, Russell and VDM, the conversation petered out I think they knew it was a poor answer

Burkie1203 · 04-10-2023 11:27am

Gilchrist over who?

James Ryan?

Berne?

Henderson?

Sanjuro · 04-10-2023 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192662#Comment_121192662

Squad, maybe. Team, no. Sexton is, and always will be a better flyhalf. VDM is a turn-style in defense. And as for Gilchrist? GTFO.

SaoPaulo41 · 04-10-2023 12:46pm

Another forum saying Henshaw has picked up an injury in training

irelandrover · 04-10-2023 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193014#Comment_121193014

I guess it will answer the question of who makes the bench. McCloskey or JOB?

SaoPaulo41 · 04-10-2023 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193022#Comment_121193022

Has to be McCloskey surely, saying that as a Leinster fan btw

accensi0n · 04-10-2023 1:00pm

Big loss, hopefully he's good for after the Scotland game.

Must love hardship · 04-10-2023 1:03pm

With henshaw doubtful with a niggle, do they put job or mcloskey on the bench to get 1 of them a bit of game time?

Jimmy o brien for me Can give him 20 minutes in a multiple of positions.

kuang1 · 04-10-2023 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192662#Comment_121192662

I watched that last night and I thought the exact same thing. Hamilton asked Hogg "which Scottish players get into that Irish side" and Hoggs body language was saying "oh ffs...you didn't just ask me that. I have to lie now." After listing 3 players he just wanted to change the subject.

Nothing wrong with the question of course, but no Scotsman would like the honest answer to it!

clsmooth · 04-10-2023 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193029#Comment_121193029

I’d go with JOB. McCloskey could make more of an impact but would be a risk against that Scottish midfield if we had to reunite the Aki and McCloskey midfield axis.

Neil3030 · 04-10-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192662#Comment_121192662

I would 100% cheer for France against Scotland and I have Scottish relatives. What's strange about that?

Rigor Mortis · 04-10-2023 2:34pm

For me it cements Crowley at 22 with O'Brien going 23.

clsmooth · 04-10-2023 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193572#Comment_121193572

Someone had a couple of miserable childhood summer holidays.

In fairness, it’s the normal competitive edge between close neighbours. Out of interest, would you cheer for England or Wales if they played Scotland?

Iamabeliever · 04-10-2023 2:53pm

Have a horrible sneaky feeling earls might make the 23.

Looking 1 game ahead to NZ, if ringrose or AKI pick up a niggle, do they start stu against NZ for his WC debut?

Neil3030 · 04-10-2023 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193723#Comment_121193723

It'd depend on the current team. Right now I'd probably lean:

Scotland v England - Scotland

Wales v England - England

And my many childhood summer holidays, in France, were wonderful.

moycullen14 · 04-10-2023 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192641#Comment_121192641

Probably the best would be to use the points difference but only for the matches between the teams themselves, ignoring the matches with the other teams. The problem with using two different criteria (points difference & then head-to-head) is that you have the crazy situation where, for example, Ireland would be out at a certain score on Saturday but would qualify if they lost by more!

RichieRich_89 · 04-10-2023 4:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193420#Comment_121193420

Yeah, I'd be far more comfortable if it was O'Brien defending in the 13 channel compared to Aki. Was it the Italy game in the last 6N where Aki looked shaky defensively playing outside McCloskey? JOB is a canny defender and technically-sound tackler. Teams won't get much change out of him at 13.

ersatz · 04-10-2023 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193742#Comment_121193742

Over Earls in centre, yes, every single time.

ersatz · 04-10-2023 4:12pm

delete

Iamabeliever · 04-10-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194092#Comment_121194092

My point being if Henshaw is not right for next week. McCloskey needs to make the 23 this week.

Otherwise they run the risk of either Ringrose or AKI picking up an injury on Saturday throwing stu into the big time the following week with Absolute no game time

AbusesToilets · 04-10-2023 4:21pm

I'd be surprised if he picks McCloskey over JOB for the 23. Gives up so much versatility, and JOB is quality in his own right.

ersatz · 04-10-2023 4:36pm

If Henshaw is a doubt I’d say Stu starting against Scotland and then either Aki or JOB at 23. I just don’t see how a question at 12 opens a spot for Earls. It’s a classic needs must moment for Farrell, adversity and flexibility determined by circumstances is his/their secret weapon. The manner in which the team adjusted to SAs defensive tactics comes to mind, problem solving when presented with new circumstances, etc. nothing drastic.

Neil3030 · 04-10-2023 4:46pm

If Henshaw is left out of the 23 entirely, I would see Stu benching.

As has been said a number of times, Ringrose is the key man in determining the 23 jersey.

His ability to cover wing allows a specialist 12 on the bench.

Wegians89 · 04-10-2023 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194245#Comment_121194245

Bundee or Stu don’t offer the cover at 13 that cover at 13 that Henshaw does though when Ringrose goes to the wing

SaoPaulo41 · 04-10-2023 7:46pm

The more I hear contributions from Scots like on OTB or on Left wing , I'm getting more nervous. Naturally they are going to talk up their own team, really just hope we get off to string start then kill the game.

Neil3030 · 04-10-2023 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194811#Comment_121194811

Fair point, yeah. But Faz was happy to go with Bundee at 13 against Italy in March when Ringrose was injured last minute; whether he is still seen as a potential 13 against a stronger team, I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Must love hardship · 04-10-2023 8:09pm

Thornley have Earls, Kelleher and Conan on the bench.

Sheehan starting.

clsmooth · 04-10-2023 8:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194919#Comment_121194919

We looked very porous against Italy. Wouldn’t want to see that partnership repeated against the strongest unit of a good Scottish team.

Water John · 04-10-2023 8:28pm

Moving Aki from 12 isn't the answer to any question. He has had 3 MOTM performances on the trot. Let him do what he does best.

04-10-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194854#Comment_121194854

You are nervous of no.1 ranked Ireland being beaten by Scotland, who we beat easily earlier this year, after losing several players to injury and having to cobble together a front row and line out?

ersatz · 04-10-2023 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195057#Comment_121195057

Who is the replacement for Ringrose were he to go down? Maybe Farrell saw Henshaw going to 13 up until now but Im not sure he has an alternative to Aki in the absence of Henshaw. JOB is the other option who has played at 13 for Ireland...not forgetting Keet.

Water John · 04-10-2023 9:01pm

12 is the forward in the back line. Too important to mess with.

This is it · 04-10-2023 9:22pm

While you can always have an upset, I don't expect it Saturday and I think we'll win by 15-20 points.

SaoPaulo41 · 04-10-2023 10:21pm

Cian Trcaey in the Indos predicted team.Hendo in for Ryan.

Possible Ireland team: H Keenan, M Hansen, G Ringrose, B Aki, J Lowe; J Sexton (capt), J Gibson-Park; A Porter, D Sheehan, T Furlong; T Beirne, I Henderson; P O’Mahony, J van der Flier, C Doris. Reps: R Kelleher, D Kilcoyne, F Bealham, J Ryan, J Conan, C Murray, J Crowley, K Earls/S McCloskey/J O’Brien.

SaoPaulo41 · 04-10-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195182#Comment_121195182

To be fair we didn't beat them easily and its a one off game. I completely get what you are saying, but this is like a cup final, anything can happen.

04-10-2023 10:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195580#Comment_121195580

We beat them 22-7, and lost 5 players to injury. Not ignoring this:

"With both Irish hookers, Dan Sheehan and his replacement Ronan Kelleher, forced off, it seemed there may never be a better time for Scotland to break a long pattern of Irish dominance. For most sides losing two hookers is a crisis, but Farrell's men barely noticed. Josh van der Flier threw perfectly well into the line-out, while substitute prop Cian Healy slotted in at number two and promptly helped his side win a scrum penalty."

And that was in Murrayfield.

Ireland will win easily on Saturday.

bilston · 04-10-2023 11:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194854#Comment_121194854

There's nothing wrong with a few nerves, in fact they are necessary IMO, it keeps the focus. Obviously it makes no difference if we're nervous as fans, but I hope the players feel it too. Everything is on the line on Saturday night.

molloyjh · 05-10-2023 12:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195580#Comment_121195580

We did beat them easily in the end. We won 22-7 and had 2 or 3 chances to get the TBP where we made some unforced errors to stop ourselves getting it. They scored just once all game. And that was in Murrayfield with all the aforementioned injuries. The first half was a close battle, but we pulled away in the second half with relative ease.

Neil3030 · 05-10-2023 2:31am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bYRWhsLNME

"Why GENIUS Finn Russell scares Ireland"

I watched this video thinking Ireland would win by around 10 points.

By the end, I completely changed my mind. Ireland will now win by around 20 points.

There's absolutely no "genius" whatsoever displayed in any of the clips they show on Russell:

Clip #1 = He panics against SA blitz and kicks it straight at one of SA's players, gifting them possession in midfield.

Clip #2 = This is a set play off a lineout that our second if not third-choice 10 could do.

Clip #3 = another set play off lineout, he did well here but it was completely prescribed and against Tonga (who were too narrow).

Clip #4 = most compelling piece of out-half play so far, he marshaled the troops well (but again... against Tonga).

They then go on to discuss the lineout, breakdown and other issues. It's actually decent content, interesting stuff. But my lord do they overestimate Russell. We put vdF on a QB-spy mission on first phase play, and then otherwise watch our spacing. Bundee will handle Tuipulotu, and there is genuinely not much else to the Scottish attack.

TRC10 · 05-10-2023 3:22am

The build up to literally all of our games against Scotland is the exact same. We constantly hear "oh Scotland are an excellent side" "they have the tools to hurt us" "they can beat anyone on their day" "Finn Russell this, Finn Russell that". It's the same every time we play and frankly I'm f*cking bored of it. We invariably beat them every time. Even in 2019 when we were utter dogsh*t, we easily dispatched them in 40 minutes.

I strongly dislike both Scotland and Wales. However Wales have on occasions in the recent pass, beaten us, won some titles and got to World Cup semi finals, so while I don't like them, I have a level of respect for them. I have no respect for Scotland. They talk themselves up time and time again as though they're some great team, and time and time again they fail to backup the talk and this weekend will be no different. I'm not worried about this game in the slightest. We're a better team in every way and I expect us to win by at least 10, probably more.

mr_edge_to_you · 05-10-2023 5:21am

Flying over today with my 9 yr old son. A trip we've been planning for for 18 months. I'm wide awake with excitement because its an amazing thing to be able to do. Our first away game too!

It will be an amazing experience. My son has never seen Jonny play for Ireland so that's great. We had the pleasure of meeting Peter O'Mahony after a Leinster v Munster game and he was such a top guy. He left a lasting impression on my son and (touch wood) it will be a privilege for us both to be in attendance for his 100th cap.

Nervous about the game because there's so much riding on it. We can take comfort from the Murrayfield performance this year but it could be close. Fingers crossed.

pickarooney · 05-10-2023 6:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195965#Comment_121195965

TRC not worried about the opposition....

I'm putting a tenner on the Scots

Buer · 05-10-2023 7:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195182#Comment_121195182

I'm very confident of beating them but there has been an incredible amount of revisionism about that game.

Up until JGP came on the field for the last 25 minutes and sparked us into life, it was 8-7 to us and we were lucky to be ahead. Scotland had blown one certain try in the first half by VDM not giving a simple pass and then we bundled them into touch as they went for the line on the stroke of half time.

There were two narratives after the game. The first was complimentary to Ireland finding a way to win and remaining so calm through a very unusual scenario of having no hooker and multiple early injuries. The second was that Scotland blew it and played with their heads up their arses, missing the opportunity to turn the screw when Ireland had no hooker.

But the game wasn't easy. It was in the balance for the majority of it. We had another level to go to and Scotland couldn't live with that which is what I hope/assume will happen again but Scotland forced us to dig deep and go to that level which many teams haven't done.

Shehal · 05-10-2023 9:19am

JOB had a great outing at 13 versus SA in November last year off the bench so I really dont see why the coaches arent backing him there, he seems like the obvious 23rd man when you also consider the other positions he covers.

Nigzcurran · 05-10-2023 9:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195991#Comment_121195991

Enjoy ye lucky divils!

Ireland v Scotland. Saturday 7th October. Stade DeFrance

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