General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

Was I surprised when the referee was calling the VAR mate and vice versa? No

Was I surprised at the self-congratulation of doing a good job? No

It all speaks to the poor culture within PGMOL.

You are at work in a formal situation, you act professionally, you don't refer to each other as mate, you don't self-congratulate, you use formal specific language. What if this had happened?

Ref: There is a question about offside, can I award the goal?

VAR (having examined the footage): The player is clearly onside, check complete, you may award the goal.

There is no need for any other conversation, there is no need for people speaking above one another, there is no need for confusion, keep it formal, keep it clear, keep it specific.

If we don't have that kind of reform, then sooner or later one of them is going to say "fancy a beer later, mate".

More women, more Asians, more people of colour, more recruited from abroad, a new culture, all things needed to improve PGMOL.

All of this has been evident for a while. There is nothing special about Liverpool being on the end of this latest VAR cock-up, the only pity is that they and their supporters are late to the party, though to be fair, they are the loudest complainants so far.

In fairness, the use of nicknames was an issue in this case. There was confusion as to whether Oli referred to Michael Oliver or Oli Kohout.

Just asking for officials to use standard titles when referring to someone instead of a name or nickname should be an obvious update.

Well I think they should look at the whole process for language used. Anything that could cause confusion or sound ambiguous should be revised.

One thing that stands out from the audio is the speed in which they’re trying to make these decisions which is all the more reason for absolute clarity in the language used - a split second of misunderstanding can end up causing the whole process to break down.

You’re right there.

In rugby, the communication is clear, even when they get things wrong.

Game last weekend in RWC, where scrum collapses and referee awards penalty to Argentina. The scrum occurred over by the side-line, and the Chile complained because they should have got the decision, as the scrum went down on the other side from the ref and was caused by Argentina. The TV commentators saw this and had commented on it. The ref came round to that side of the scrum and said to the Chilean captain that he didn’t expect the linesman on that side of the scrum, a full pitch width away, to be able to see the foul, so “sorry, we play on”. He figured he might have got the call wrong and apologised but couldn’t change his call.

We have so much time added these days, an extra minute here would have saved a world of woe.

These are the other 14 apology scenarios:

Crystal Palace vs Aston Villa (August 2022)         PGMOL apologised to Crystal Palace after referee Andy Madley changed his decision on a Palace penalty after looking at the monitor, despite a handball from Villa defender Lucas Digne.

Chelsea vs West Ham (September 2022)            Jarrod Bowen saw a late equaliser for West Ham ruled out following a foul on Edouard Mendy, with PGMOL apologising for the foul awarding.

Newcastle vs Crystal Palace (September 2022) Joe Willock was deemed to have impeded goalkeeper Vicente Guaita, meaning Newcastle's goal - an own goal by Palace defender Tyrick Mitchell - was ruled out. PGMOL subsequently apologised for the decision.

Man Utd vs Arsenal (September 2022)                 Gabriel Martinelli saw a goal incorrectly ruled out by VAR after Arsenal captain Martin Odegaard was adjudged to have fouled Christian Eriksen. PGMOL apologised for awarding the foul.

Fulham vs Aston Villa (October 2022)                  PGMOL apologised after the referee incorrectly showed Aston Villa midfielder Douglas Luiz a red card for an incident involving Aleksandar Mitrovic.

Nottingham Forest vs Brentford (November 2022)         Brentford were incorrectly awarded a penalty against Nottingham Forest, with it later deemed that goalkeeper Dean Henderson had not fouled Bees attacker Yoann Wissa.

Aston Villa vs Manchester United (November 2022)      Lucas Digne's free kick goal for Aston Villa should have been ruled out, as United's wall was positioned too far back than the requisite 10 yards by the referee.

Brighton vs Liverpool (January 2023)                    PGMOL apologised for showing Liverpool's Fabinho a yellow card, rather than a red card, for a high tackle on Brighton's Evan Ferguson.

Crystal Palace vs Brighton (February 2023)         VAR official John Brooks ruled out Pervis Estupinan a goal for Brighton for offside, but it later emerged that he had drawn the offside lines next to the wrong player and the goal should have stood.

Arsenal vs Brentford (February 2023)        Ivan Toney's goal for Brentford stood after VAR official Lee Mason missed that Bees midfielder Christian Norgaard was in an offside position.

Everton vs Man City (February 2023)        Everton were incorrectly denied a penalty when a handball by City midfielder Rodri wasn't given.

Tottenham vs Brighton (April 2023)           Brighton were not awarded a penalty against Spurs after Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg was deemed not to have fouled Kaoru Mitoma, but PGMOL later apologised for the decision.

Man Utd vs Wolves (August 2023)             Wolves were denied a late penalty when United goalkeeper Andre Onana wiped out Sasa Kalajdzic in the box. PGMOL later sent an apology to Gary O'Neil's side.

For me, the worst 3 are Jarred Bowen, Pervis Estupinan and Luis Diaz, as they all had valid goals disallowed. After that Brentford’s “goal” standing. It’s a lot of f**k ups to be fair.

@blanch152 "All of this has been evident for a while. There is nothing special about Liverpool being on the end of this latest VAR cock-up, the only pity is that they and their supporters are late to the party, though to be fair, they are the loudest complainants so far."

I don't think the Liverpool fans got too vocal when Harry Kane tried to cut Andy Robertson in half back in the day

This is what VAR deemed "not a red card" back then.

Perhaps this s**t decision on Sunday was just the last straw. Perhaps.

Definitely. I don’t think it will help in the jones situation as I don’t think you can appeal an appeal.

You can't replay the game because of a wrong refereeing decision..

Here's the actual quote. "I say this not as manager of Liverpool but as a football person - I think the only outcome should be a replay. Probably will not happen."

So its not Liverpool. That's his personal take.

Personally, I think it won't, and can't happen. The IFAB rule about re-starting games is the only "grey area" that could be modified next Spring, but I doubt there would be any appetite for that, as where would you draw the line for a time allowed for going back in the play?

The fix is inside the VAR booth. I await the next error.

Oh so Juergen klopp doesn’t manage or speak for Liverpool now. That’s a new one

Think a few posters owe you apology

Read the quote. Its in English. Only two of the words have three syllables.

Everyone can speak in a personal capacity.

He's distancing himself from Liverpool football club because the club are looking at all the evidence that they have, and have not made a statement since the one released on Sunday, including "It is clear that the correct application of the laws of the game did not occur, resulting in sporting integrity being undermined." and ""That such failings have already been categorised as 'significant human error' is also unacceptable. Any and all outcomes should be established only by the review and with full transparency. This is vital for the reliability of future decision making as it applies to all clubs with learnings being used to make improvements to processes in order to ensure this kind of situation cannot occur again. In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution."

Oh FFS Jurgen...

I love you. I really do. But you're not helping with that, at all.

You can't punish Tottenham for a refereeing team's monumental fúck up. yes, the style of the fúck up was unprecedented, but good Christ, you can't just replay matches that go against you - no matter how robbed we feel. imagine that precedent was set?

The actual only resolution is get referees who are competent. That's it. It's a pain in the backside to be the ones this has happened to, but the point was made - it was a disgraceful performance by the referees, and everything must be done for that to not happen again.

That is all you can do. Shame the FA. Shame the referees. And then hope it helps them get their acts together for the next time.

From what I read Liverpool are requesting that this is looked at at the end of the season and if the points lost make a difference then to demand a replay. Couple of points, the rules state that incorrect var decisions cannot be appealed and cannot cause a replay. And secondly Liverpool can’t prove that they lost points because of the chalked off goal.

the only thing this really proves is everyone being correct in being scarlet for them.

The season would not finish for 3 years if we had replay every poor decision

this is correct.

the club have not asked for a replay.

Klopp has just said what he thinks would be right for the 'integrity of the game' in order to keep the pressure on. I don't agree with him on the replay front at all - it's bonkers - but that's all that has happened.

It's not the GAA where lesser teams have offered replays based on perceived unfairness due to incorrect scores being awarded. It's a shame, I was thoroughly enjoying the game and would love to see a replay but I would never expect one or think it appropriate for LFC to request one.

I've bad news for you. There are two teams I dislike (almost equally!), and they both wear red and are massive in Ireland !!

I do however, love football, and I thought it was a s**t decision. I also bet on football, so have a very, very, very keen interest in what I thought VAR would bring, which was an improvement in key decisions. I feel like I may have misplaced my optimism.

If we get improvements from this then happy days. Giving the lads the week off seems like a reward, not a punishment, but there'll be some, deserved, slagging next time they actually referee a game.

You were laughed at correctly because Liverpool football club have not looked for a replay. The article you quoted above is just an opinion column and means absolutely nothing. And who are these "legal experts" they asked? Sure for all we know they could of asked Jimmy down the betting office for his legal advice?

Or Jurgen klopp.

Listen admit that Liverpool are looking for an appeal based on klopps statement. A senior executive of any entity can never step out of their role and speak personally. That’s why so many get sacked for personal comments even when not speaking in the role.

The whole football community is laughing at Liverpool now and even more when saying klopp isn’t speaking for Liverpool.

So you want me to admit to something that hasn't happened just to keep you happy? I only deal in facts,not whataboutry and hearsay

I’m always happy! This just makes me laugh more.