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Brother living on property owned by me.

  • 05-10-2023 5:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭


    Long story short, a few years ago my brother was going through a rough patch. My parents wanted give him somewhere stable to live and for complicated, ill-thought out reasons involving his ex-partner, the property was put in my name. No tenancy agreement was made etc... he just lives there.

    But to complicate matters, unfortunately for me, this was also intended to be my inheritance. As he is a bit older than me my parents figured it would be a nest egg for me somewhere down the line. As per my parents wishes I am ok with him living there for as long as he needs, the remainder of his life etc... but I am worried as to how this exposes me legally. He has always had income issues and now he has spent money doing the house up and I think he fully sees the property as his own. I can also imagine him inviting his daughter to live with him their in the future, or taking on a flat mate when he needs money. Not to mention other legal issues that may arise.

    I feel like I was incredibly naïve to walk into this without doing more research and wonder how best to proceed without causing a lot of family strife.



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,576 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    It doesn't expose you to any legal issues, have a chat with whoever is the legal owner of the house and ask them what's the story.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 314 ✭✭carfinder


    You could perhaps read the thread title or the OP's post BEFORE dispensing this profound, but utterly misinformed advice



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,576 ✭✭✭Rows Grower



    I read the lines and in between the lines.

    There is no mention that both or indeed any of the parents have passed away.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,782 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Be careful OP. As the property is in your name, you are responsible for him.

    My dad had the same issue with his alcoholic sister and his parents very old home after they passed. She remained and fell in the home in a drunken state. She paid no rent and he still had legal responsibility for her despite being an adult in her 40's at the time. She attempted to sue the owner (my dad) for the fall.

    Only got out of it after the council offered her a home of her own that was much nicer and she had to forget about the legal case.

    Fearing she would be back, he sold it and split it with his other siblings as they all moaned about lack of cut in it despite never caring for their parents needs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald


    Ugh that is awful for your dad, and this is just the type of situation I am afraid of so am wondering how I can cover myself without causing family strife. Ideally, now that he is working again, he could perhaps get a small mortgage to buy me out. But since he was told that this was his house to live in that suggestion wouldn't go over well at this stage.



    The property was bought as a "gift" so is in my name. But I am beginning to see it as a potential curse.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Who pays the LPT, insurance, esb/gas, waste charges and maintenance ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald


    At the moment I pay the LPT and he pays the rest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,292 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    You should have landlord's insurance: he can insure his property but cannot insure yours.

    If I were you, I would book an appointment with a lawyer, to get a handle on your liabilities and risks. Don't tell the family about it. You just need information.

    Ideally any ideas for change should come from your brother. Is he actually earning enough to buy, or would he qualify for social housing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That's not true. The property being in a person name does not make them legally responsible for the occupants. Just because your alcoholic aunt tried to sue your does not means he was actually responsible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,901 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    In the OP is sounded like that house in question was the family home, that was going to pass you you in time, but the brother was told he could always live there. But from reading the post above, it sounds like this is actually a second property that was bought by your parents, put in your name and he moved in. Is that correct?

    Are your parents still alive? What is the inheritance plans for for family home or any other property.

    To be honest, you're in a tricky spot. He is living there with permission, so it'd would be unlikely to turn into an adverse possession situation. But that's not going to resolve things for you. He's been told he could live there as long as he needs or wants, rent free. So there's really zero incentive for him to give that up, and being honest with with you - why should he? He's as entitled to be occupier as you are to be the owner, both being the terms of the "gift".

    It's a bit of a foolish "inheritance" from your parents. The rest of his life could be a long time. If he lives to 90, it's not going to be much of a nest egg for you to received in your 80s. If your parents are still alive it may be best to rectify the inheritance situation now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald


    He has started a new job and if all goes well he might be in a position to buy, but I have a feeling the suggestion won't go over well since as far as he is concerned the house is effectively his already. In fact he'd probably be in a better financial position than me at that stage and would be living for free in my supposed inheritance that I have to pay insurance and tax etc... on would severely rankle.

    Hmmmm, I guess this is the sort of thing I need to discuss with a lawyer. I don't actually have any interaction with the house so their could be issues with upkeep that might make me responsible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    What seems to have happened here is that your parents gifted you a house, subject to a right (not recorded in writing) for your brother to reside in the house for his life.

    To be honest, this was never going to be much of an inheritance for you. Unless your brother is dramatically older than you, or quite sick, you may be pretty old before he dies, or you may even die before him. At any rate, you are unlikely to receive it until many years after your parents die, which is when you normally expect to receive an inheritance. But it might be a useful inheritance for your kids.

    It seems from what you say that your parents' primary motivation was to ensure your brother had somewhere to live. Putting the house in your name was partly, and perhaps mainly, a device to protect the house from your brother's creditors and/or vengeful ex. That it would provide some kind of inheritance for you was perhaps a bit of a secondary consideration, or perhaps even something they told themselves to assuage a sense they had that they were favouring your brother over you. So if, at the time, somebody had said to your parents "This isn't much of an inheritance for Oswald" the answer might have been "Yeah, we know. That's not really our first priority here."

    Anyway, we are where we are. I think there's two things you could do.

    First, you could suggest to your brother that his lifetime right of residence should be formally documented, for clarity and for his protection. If he agrees to this it also protects you (or your children) from a claim later on that what your parents intended was that the house would be available for him and his family indefinitely, and not just for his life. This isn't a trivial risk; the more time that passes, and the more people that age and die, the harder it will be to prove what your parents originally said/wanted/intended. So it's to your advantage that the arrangement be documented now.

    Secondly, if your brother's financial situation has stabilised/improved, you might offer to buy out his right of residence, and he could take the money and use it (no doubt, with a further loan from the bank) to buy a house of his own. He'd then have a house that he actually owns and that he could leave to his own children; you'd have vacant possession of the house that you own and you could sell it or let it out at a market rent according to your preference. A value could be calculated for your brother's lifetime right of residence based on the value of the property with vacant possession and on your brother's life expectancy, given his age. Any competent valuer can do this for you.

    If you don't buy him out, your brother can continue to reside in the house until he dies, but he has no incentive to spend money on it or look after it, since it will eventually go back to you. In theory he is responsible for routine maintenance, regular repainting, keeping the roof in order, etc so that it is handed back to you in the condition in which he got it; in practice if he lets these things slide there's not a lot you can do about it, and over time the house will deteriorate in condition and value. This is a common problem with family arrangements where one person lives in a house owned by another. So if you can negotiate an end to this arrangement, that would probably be a good idea.

    As others have said, you have to insure the house; he can't. You should get landlord's insurance, which normally includes liability insurance, so if someone is injured in the house, God forbid, and sues you, you can just hand the matter over to the insurer.

    Your brother, presumably, owns the contents of the house — furniture, etc — and it's up to him to insure those.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,412 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Sell the house. If he’s in the position, let him buy the house from you at a fair price. You get your inheritance, he gets a house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭farmerval


    OP there's a vagueness in your statement, that your parents bought this house for somewhere for your brother to live. Because of issues with his ex partner the house was put in your name, yet you say this house was to be a nest egg for you. These things are incompatible surely?

    In one view they bought the house for him, putting it in your name was to prevent someone else, his ex. benefitting from it.

    The other view is they bought it as a gift for you, and then you/they left your brother move into it, as he needed a hand up at the time. The thing is it can't really be both things at the same time.

    Are your parents alive? As the people who purchased this property their wishes are surely the important one? If they're not, do you know what they really wanted? Was it to provide a home for your brother who needed it, or a gift for you?

    Leaving your parents wishes aside, there now appears to be a mortgage free house which you legally own, but your brother probably believes is really his. From his perspective presumably the house was purchased for his benefit, it was put in his name to prevent his ex getting a hold on it? Now he has a daughter, who presumably believes the house belongs to him?

    Your closing line "I feel like I was incredibly naïve to walk into this without doing more research and wonder how best to proceed without causing a lot of family strife"

    How did you walk into it? What have you ventured in this? You pay property tax. Have you any other outgoings relating to this property? Are there decisions that you have made which would have been different had this property not been in your name? or is this simply a nest egg you could benefit from at some point in the future? There are many decisions you may have made on the basis of this nest egg being yours at some stage regarding pensions etc.

    This is a complicated situation to be in. The end solution whatever it is will be disappointing for either you or your brother. If you have your own home, he or other siblings may see you claiming ownership as mercenary? If you offered to sell it to him for a value he can afford I assume that would be below or maybe well below market value?

    At face value this appears to be the absolute "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs scenario" It is very hard for you to give up some or all of the value of this property a sit is in your name, equally I assume your brother believes this house was bought for him, being in your name was to avoid his ex getting a share. These are competing narratives.

    As a first step you need to talk to your brother about this conundrum. It's wrong for him too if he's living in a false situation. If you have other siblings or your parents are alive you could speak to them also.

    Ultimately there are competing interests here, and simply put you believe that your name on the deeds trumps all other claims. To assert that right fully may have very bad consequences for your brother.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The house is unsaleable in the open market as long as the brother is living in it. To sell the house (to anyone other than the brother), the OP would first have to persuade/compel the brother to leave.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald



    You both have summed up the situation very well. I did keep some issues vague as to not complicate matters and out of a wish not to over-share. But I should add that many years ago my brother received an inheritance gift towards a house but after his break-up the property was sold and the money split with his wife to buy a home for her and their daughter to live in. This property was not intended to be the sum of my inheritance, and my name was put on it primarily to shield the house from his ex. I rarely see my brother, I live in Dublin and the house is in Galway so I have never really viewed it as mine, it was just something I signed a document for once and only thought about once a year. But as my brother's situation worsened, more money was put towards his well being and general support and now it has been made clear the house is all that will be left to me. So while the property was essentially left to my brother in my name, I am now naturally hoping there is a way for me to access the capital within the house without upsetting everyone.

    But mainly I am only worried about how this might play out in the long run legally. My parents, who are now both elderly and in poor health, were worn out by the emotional and financial strain and I think just want to imagine it all working out for everyone for their peace of mind. I know I need to involve them but I don't want to cause them further stress if possible. In truth I don't really have much of a relationship with my brother and if he becomes unwell again unfortunately I can imagine some sort of legal schemes in the future and claims of ownership etc... and Plus his ex has proven quite litigious so I definitely need to be covered in case anything happens to their daughter while on the property, thank you for confirming that I am the one that has to purchase this.

    The suggestions are helpful, the option to draw up then buy out his right of residence seems like maybe the easiest sell to make to everyone, as long as we can agree on a valuation of what that would be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    This is another example of parents leaving a mess behind them over a family home. Why on earth have the house in the name of one child while allowing another to live there as long as they like? Parents need to consider these messes and write clear and simple wills. As for the OP, see a solicitor and find out if you have any options - none will be without strife though unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 314 ✭✭carfinder


    You should probably consider an appointment with Specsavers ... OP very clearly stated that the property is in his/her own name



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    If he's open in principle to selling out his share, identifying the value can be a fairly mechanical operation. There's a set of tables in the Capital Acquisitions Tax Act for valuing a life interest in property; Revenue use them e.g. to assess your inheritance tax if Great Aunt Bessie leaves you a life interest in her house. They're reasonably impartial, not seeking to favour the person with the life interest over the owner or vice versa so even if there's no tax issue (as here) you can agree to use them.

    First, you get the house valued by a valuer jointly commissioned by you and your brother. They value it on the basis of open market sale, with vacant possession. Let's say they value it at €500k.

    Then, you look up the valuation factor for your brother's life interest. If he is, say, a man aged 55, the valuation factor for a life interest is 0.6598. So the value of your brother's life interest in the house is €500k x 0.6598 = €330k, more or less. And there you go.

    (Because the valuation factor is age-related, it goes down as your brother gets older. This is a consideration which might lead him to accept a suggest that he should sell to you; if he doesn't accept now, but later changes his mind, he'll be older and he'll get less for his life interest.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,576 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    "For complicated and ill thought out reasons", made by the parents, who are both still alive.

    "Very soon we are going to Mars. You wouldn't have been going to Mars if my opponent won, that I can tell you. You wouldn't even be thinking about it."

    Donald Trump, March 13th 2018.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Has the brother been paying tax for this 'free' rent?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,292 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Would he be open to it though - because where would he then live?

    Wayyyy to dangerous to leave him there as a rent paying tenant- because he likely would stop paying. And Galway judges don't like evicting mentally fragile tenants anymore, even if they don't pay and terrorise the neighbours.

    OP, what's your own situation? Do you own a house (well a mortgage:-) ) separately? If not, then I think you have some more risks to consider.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 314 ✭✭carfinder


    What has that to do with the OP's query. You seem to be incorrectly associating the parents being alive with the house ownership, when, if you read the OP, the ownership of the house has already transferred so the fact that the parents are alive is not relevant. You're welcome



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Could you mortgage the house and get some money.

    After its done tell your brother that you have mortgaged it and spent the money and now have no money to pay the mortgage so he is going to have to pay it.

    Or default and let the bank repossess maybe.

    What about selling it to opne of those companies that buy your house with an agreement that you can live there til you die, except that make it an agreement that your brother can live there til he dies.

    Probably all sorts of problems with all those options.

    Im assuming here that if you could get a good portion of the value out of the house you dont really care what happens to the house after that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Awful advice but a good way to ruin the OPs credit rating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Have to say I would want to get out of it. Its of no value to the OP in fact it's a lifelong expense. It's not an inheritance. Ots the opposite. For the brother he's going to have a tax issue with free accomodation. House should be put into a trust or such. Get legal advice on it. The OP should cut his losses and walk away from it.

    Regardless of the money aspect it will ruin any relationships going forward. I would sell the idea to the parents that it solves the tax issue for the brother, protects the asset and the OP isn't covering the expenses. It's going to involve a financial hit for everyone to get out of it. I would stop using whatever accountant suggested this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭dublin49


    my reading of your parents intentions was not to get caught financially again by your brothers ex and you were only a means to that end.I can understand the frustration you are the named owner of a potential lucrative asset but in reality you may never benefit and might suffer financially from this involvement.Have you considered signing ownership over to your brother without cost to him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    That defeats the whole purpose for the parent. While it solves the issue for the OP it will cause a lot of problems between them and their parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald


    Can you expand on what this tax issue would be?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2 ca319


    He is liable to pay gift tax at 33% on the market value of the rent. Less €3000 per year small gift exemption.

    living in accommodation rent free is seen as a taxable gift.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Ironically the parents would have a larger gift tax threshold.

    Regardless of any financial issue. I think the situation will eventually wreck the ops peace of mind and the brothers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Obviously get legal advice, but you may have to pay him for the upgrades if you move him put?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    OP can't walk away, there'll likely be tax issues. Has OP paid CAT on receiving the house (or just used up CAT threshold)? If the property is worth more than the date ownership was transferred, then walking away still lands OP with a CGT bill.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,709 ✭✭✭blackbox


    it sounds like it's not really the OPs house. He certainly doesn't have free title to it.

    The parents basically gave the house to the brother but put the OPs name on the paperwork.

    The OP should get legal advice on how to cut his losses and use this as a lesson on how not to mess things up for his own children.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Either that or 30 yrs of expense at the end of which it's a gamble if the OP will get the house and will be too old to benefit from it if he does.

    Only the OP knows if the brother would buy him out. Sounds unlikely at even at 50%. Maybe I'm wrong.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald


    Is that really likely to be discovered at any stage?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭uncleoswald




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    For sure. There are ways around like caretaker arrangements. But that's getting mired deeper.

    You could certainly drag it out for decades. I couldn't do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭dickdasr1234




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭dickdasr1234




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think what you call it is mostly irrelevant.

    It's a NPPR. Rented for free.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,717 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    It was and the parents passed it on in a complete moral, financial and legal mess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭dickdasr1234


    If you took the trouble to read ALL of the posts, you would find that it is most certainly NOT a 'family home' - it is the property of the OP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,071 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    There’s some misunderstanding here;

    some believe the parents signed over the family home to the op with a verbal agreement allowing op’s brother to live there. Others are reading it, as I did, that the parents bought a house for op’s brother to live in but put it in op’s name.

    Either way it was not a great solution as it worked out.

    Edit ; op says this;

    “The property was bought as a "gift" so is in my name. But I am beginning to see it as a potential curse.”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,531 ✭✭✭Car99


    Why didn't the patents buy the house in their name and let it at that. I don't what the benefit to you was in buying it in your name. Future inheritance with conditions make no real sense to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,124 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Consider what legal definition of a family home is and in terms of tax.

    I would argue what the OP has described is effectively a rental. It's a NPPR and the owner doesn't live in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    As I see it, the brother isn't liable to gift tax on the imputed rent; he has a right to live in the house rent-free. The gift he received is not annual accommodation from the OP, but a one-off gift of a lifetime right of residence. The value of the gift will depend on the market value of the house when it was bought, and the brother's age at that time.

    (I understand that the gift of the right of residence was not documented or registered. That wouldn't stop it being a taxable gift.)

    The gift of the life interest was from the OP's parents to the OP's brother. The OP was not a party on either side, and has no responsiblities in relation to any tax liablity the brother may have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's not a family home for the purposes of the Family Home Protection Act. The brother lives in it, and his (estranged) wife has never lived in it. So, not a family home.



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