Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

I do think there is a feature of how the Palestinian struggle has morphed over the years that people who push the unfettered "they are freedom fighters" line tend to overlook. That is the fact that the ideological focus of their struggle has shifted quite significantly away from secularism and towards Islamism. Where once the PLO seemed to fit quite well into the same narrative as the oft-romanticised struggles of European groups like the IRA, ETA, Baader Meinhof etc, Hamas have replaced the PLO and their actions of last weekend are now more reminiscent to Europeans of the almost nihilistic manner in which Islamic fundamentalist militants perpetrate violence.

To be clear, I don't think it negates either the very obvious grievances of the Palestinians, nor justifies Israeli brutality in return, but it should open eyes to the fact that Hamas are not on some great quest that can be cleanly compartmentalised in a "freedom fight" box where the actors strive to avoid acts of barbarism or regret those that do occur — but are very much driven by a fundamental Islamic agenda that actually encourages barbarism as being virtuous.

Again, this is not in dismissal of Israeli wrongdoing before anyone leaps on the post.

Ya it's time Israel called the other Arab nations bluff and ask them to give up some land to let them settle. They absolutely wouldn't because they hate the Palestinians and only use them to virtue signal.

Are you looking for actual videos to show it's actually happening, define proof of what you're looking for exactly to prove it's not happening,

People were raped and killed on Saturday what makes you think that they won't be raping their kidnapp victims

Hamas basically went full Jihad on behalf of the Palestinian people with their actions. I doubt many Gaza civilians wanted this but they were not given a choice. They have played right into the Israel leaderships murderous hands. I cannot see how this will end well for Israel as a sitting duck amongst the Arab nations either. They will be multitudes hated after this. The scenes are horrific.

For the record I’m not one of those people who shout antisemitic.

And I’ll be totally honest also- while I abhor violence and war, if I were Israeli right now, I just don’t think I could do anything other than support what that government are about to do.

Yes innocent people will get killed/ but that’s war- calling it “shooting fish in a barrel” or whatever doesn’t really take away from the fact that an act of war by a terrorist group was done to another country- I can appreciate they have to “go in hard” - it’s very very sad but I don’t see any other option here.

Hopefully it will be Hamas not innocent people that will suffer but that’s down to the quality of intelligence about Hamas numbers and locations - let’s hope it’s accurate

I think regarding the hostage situation - unfortunately Israel will have to fight fire with fire

Meaning they will have to enter Gaza and take hostages as retaliation.

This is only minute chance Israel has of freeing their abducting citizens.

Hamas = Isis

The only way Hamas will listen is if Israel trigger 'The Muslim Brotherhood effect' and show Hamas that they too have taken hostages

People will burn flags, chant death to Israel you know the usual thing they have been doing for decades, as Israel has had to show time and time again they are not afraid of their neighbours not even when 5 of their neighbours supported by the Kremlin invaded Israel which started the Yom Kippur war ...

Israel always has hostages, and many of them are children.

In fact the whole population of Gaza are held hostage: Israel has over two million hostages there. And they murder them by the hundred every few years.

Israel has always murdered Palestinians, it was born in a bloodfest, a festival of Palestinian blood and suffering.

Oh here we go, another "Why they are entirely wrong and I am entirely right" lecture.

You say I completely ignore the discriminatory facets of Israel — well how do you know that? Does every post need a long list of disclaimers? And did I not say that the treatment of Palestinians was wrong? My statement is simply grounded in the fact that if you go to Israel it is largely similar in its basic everyday functioning to Western democracies and it is a place where you will likely experience tolerance and general prosperity — much more so than elsewhere in that region. The quality of life in Israel is again generally very good. Denying this is just stupid, but of course you've decided to ride in on a white horse to educate me on something that I already know — that Israel's functioning society belies its wrongs in dealing with Palestinians.

You know, I grew up in the North and (while it has always been, for the most part, a far far less intractable division than that of Israel-Palestine) I know a thing or two about divided societies, hatred, historical narratives of who was wronged and who did the wrongs. I grew up with it every single day — how themmuns did this and the Brits did that and how this was justified and that wasn't justified.

One thing I've learned in the course of my life is that most narratives that hail the virtue of one side of a conflict are like cheap sausages — there's some meat in there, but also a whole pile of shite. Same applies to the posts in this thread that attempt to entirely dismiss the fact that maybe, just maybe, there is room to see the good in the other side.

Sounds like your on a windup so,

It happened at the weekend and it's highly likely it's happening to women hostages as we speak,

Not sure what you expecting other than actual videos