Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

Goodness knows the suffering they've endured if they're even still alive 😪 They took babies too 😥

If you were Israeli do you think you would condemn the war crimes that Israel has committed, not just now but since the state came into being - let's start with the Nakba. Not forgetting the Stern gang and Irgun.

Would you call for the return of the displaced Palestinians? Would you call for their property to be returned to them and for reparations to be made to them? We are talking of many millions of affected people here BTW.

Your fake veil from yesterday has slipped. Shame on you. I and many others have condemned the Hamas violence and killing of innocents and you well know that.

This thread could go on for 1,000 pages and some people would still treat it like a simplistic black and white issue when it's absolutely not. What Hamas did was utterly barbaric, equally Israel's heavy handed responses are far too indiscriminate given the urban density of Gaza.

I don't know what the solution is, it's an absolute nightmare. The fact that Hamas is an ISIS-like fundamentalist group in control of Gaza makes a solution extremely difficult.

A majority of Palestinians (and obviously Hamas) want Israel completely removed from historic Palestine. How do you reach realistic compromise on that?

Also I have to ask what is the root cause of the obsession with Palestine in particular? I'm not saying their plight isn't worth talking about, far from it.

But you barely hear a peep about the continued brutality Turkey is inflicting on the Kurds, and Turkey's literally at the edge of the EU. Why?

The EU and the USA etc should demand a ceasefire if they had any decency at all. Crimes against children are not war.

I do think there is a feature of how the Palestinian struggle has morphed over the years that people who push the unfettered "they are freedom fighters" line tend to overlook. That is the fact that the ideological focus of their struggle has shifted quite significantly away from secularism and towards Islamism. Where once the PLO seemed to fit quite well into the same narrative as the oft-romanticised struggles of European groups like the IRA, ETA, Baader Meinhof etc, Hamas have replaced the PLO and their actions of last weekend are now more reminiscent to Europeans of the almost nihilistic manner in which Islamic fundamentalist militants perpetrate violence.

To be clear, I don't think it negates either the very obvious grievances of the Palestinians, nor justifies Israeli brutality in return, but it should open eyes to the fact that Hamas are not on some great quest that can be cleanly compartmentalised in a "freedom fight" box where the actors strive to avoid acts of barbarism or regret those that do occur — but are very much driven by a fundamental Islamic agenda that actually encourages barbarism as being virtuous.

Again, this is not in dismissal of Israeli wrongdoing before anyone leaps on the post.

The US are obviously making sure that no other factions outside Israel get involved until Israel finishes Hamas. The trouble is that many hundreds of innocents will die in the meantime and nobody seems to give a hoot about them. Collateral damage so to speak. Then in 10/20 years or less another Hamas forms which will be worse than the last and - Rinse and Repeat.

Ya it's time Israel called the other Arab nations bluff and ask them to give up some land to let them settle. They absolutely wouldn't because they hate the Palestinians and only use them to virtue signal.

Are you looking for actual videos to show it's actually happening, define proof of what you're looking for exactly to prove it's not happening,

People were raped and killed on Saturday what makes you think that they won't be raping their kidnapp victims

Hamas basically went full Jihad on behalf of the Palestinian people with their actions. I doubt many Gaza civilians wanted this but they were not given a choice. They have played right into the Israel leaderships murderous hands. I cannot see how this will end well for Israel as a sitting duck amongst the Arab nations either. They will be multitudes hated after this. The scenes are horrific.

For the record I’m not one of those people who shout antisemitic.

And I’ll be totally honest also- while I abhor violence and war, if I were Israeli right now, I just don’t think I could do anything other than support what that government are about to do.

Yes innocent people will get killed/ but that’s war- calling it “shooting fish in a barrel” or whatever doesn’t really take away from the fact that an act of war by a terrorist group was done to another country- I can appreciate they have to “go in hard” - it’s very very sad but I don’t see any other option here.

Hopefully it will be Hamas not innocent people that will suffer but that’s down to the quality of intelligence about Hamas numbers and locations - let’s hope it’s accurate