Major hike in vacant home tax?

tinytobe · 09-10-2023 11:15pm #1

I don't find the hike in a vacant home tax such a good idea:

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/major-hike-in-vacant-homes-tax-to-be-announced-in-the-budget/a1799104676.html?hConversionEventId=AQEAAZQF2gAmdjYwMDAwMDE4Yi0xNTNjLTFiNWQtYTgxYy1lNjRiMjJjOWVlMzfaACRjY2IzZmFlOC01NTE1LTQxNmQtMDAwMC0wMjFlZjNhMGJjYzjaACQyYWYxM2JkYy0xNzk3LTQyM2QtOTY2MC1mYzUzOTQ0OTQwMDelQKGkuLATgUpYlN2t0ZUK6ehuhGKTt4QEAPh1DNMJ4g

Suppose I am not a professional investor and own one apartment in Dublin. Due to professional reasons, I was to spend one year, mabye more outside of Ireland. The apartment would still contain all my personal effects, furniture, etc...

In that respect, I would be subject to this new tax?

Absences due to professional reasons are also not an exemption from this tax.

Even worse, revenue.ie is spying on your energy usage?

"Revenue has used ESB Networks electricity readings to indicate homes that are unoccupied based on low electricity usage."

I also think that this is a very strong intrusion on private life.

I would understand it, if this is targeted at investors who own several properties and leave them deliberately empty, - however if it's about one single apartment by one owner, this vacant home tax is not the right choice.

Also, as any tax can go up, and the only way is ironically up for any tax, the number of days, currently 30, can also change.

This is certainly the wrong way of solving the housing crisis.

batman75 · 09-10-2023 11:22pm

Wouldn't be happy that the state has access to esb readings. Surely if a house is legally owned then it's none of the state's business whether it's occupied or not out with tax being paid on a rental

It's actually cheeky as the state has virtually abandoned providing public housing leaving it to the private sector

Ginger83 · 09-10-2023 11:29pm

It's something that many people will get around by saying a son/daughter/niece/nephew is staying.

tinytobe · 09-10-2023 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216470#Comment_121216470

I think the only way to solve the housing crisis is to build simply more. Increase supply, not increase taxes and make people pay for something they can't change themselves.

It's not unusual to own an apartment in Dublin but as career choices change to go to a different city, - not buy there just to check out the job. Or one is seconded overseas for a year or two. Also not unusual. And having an apartment full of personal stuff, personal clothes, furniture, doesn't mean empty in my language.

However revenue seems to define as empty, if it's not lived in on a permanent basis, regardless what's in it or not.

Geuze · 10-10-2023 1:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216470#Comment_121216470

By your logic, widespread house vacancy should be of no concern to anybody, even in the midst of massive housing shortages?

I see your point.

Private property is paramount, and one should be allowed to do whatever one likes with one's own house.

I suppose in a crisis, politics must be seen to reposnd, and this is one response.

It is due to increase in Budget 2024, to 5x LPT.

Geuze · 10-10-2023 1:11am

By the way, I heard Pearse Doherty refer to "emergency powers" to deal with the housing crisis, and SF discuss vacancy.

So I get the feeling they would go much further than the current VHT.

The VHT is weak, due to the 30-day criterion.

Geuze · 10-10-2023 1:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216470#Comment_121216470

Section 653BB refers to elec usage, but I don't see where the Revenue have the powers......................

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/act/2022/44/eng/enacted/a4422.pdf

Strumms · 10-10-2023 1:27am

Starts with this.

then we’ll have a bedroom tax

then we’ll have a prohibition on single people purchasing a residence with more than two bedrooms…

also, if they are going to penalise you for having a property unoccupied, it’s not a great stretch to perceive they’ll do the same for the perceived under utilisation of a property …..

not very democratic, supposedly supporting the Ukraine vs the Russians but this craic is less then democratic in fact it’s quite Stalinist carry on…. 😏

batman75 · 10-10-2023 10:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216687#Comment_121216687

If you only own one domestic residence then the state should not be allowed to punish you just because your work dictates your not there 24/7.

tinytobe · 10-10-2023 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121217394#Comment_121217394

That's exactly it.

I would support a vacant home tax only for investors who own multiple properties and don't ever intend to live in there and don't want to rent them out for whatever reason.

But one private personal domestic residence should not be touched, just because you're spending one year say in the United States or Australia, for professional reasons.

Wanderer78 · 10-10-2023 10:48am

yup, time to start tackling vacancy, land hoarding etc etc, we ve been playing the lets do everything in our power to protect asset owners, and make sure non asset owners get well fcuked! ffg starting to sweat, sorry folks, its too late, you re gonna get hammered next year, better luck next time!

SharkMX · 10-10-2023 10:58am

Ive a mate who has a 2 bed apartment in Dublin city center.

he used to rent it out but had a bad tenant that wrecked the place. Then he was doing Airbnb but that got banned.

Any of us who want to stay the night just ring him and ask if its available and other he says yes or no. Sometimes he stays in it himself when his wife boots him out for coming home too late. But if I was out for a few pints I would just send him a text saying any chance of crashing in your place and he would say yes and i already have a key so i stay there.

In return i'll buy him a few pints next time i see him or drop him over a few pressies at Christmas.

Sent him a voucher for Ryanair flights once but having tried to use them myself when i got them off someone else before, I think that might have been more of a problem for him than a gift. So now I just send them a voucher for a hotel stay or a meal every once in a while,

Geuze · 10-10-2023 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121217408#Comment_121217408

I wonder is there an exemption for the situation you outline?

It seems not.

There are a number of exemptions to the base, to ensure property owners are not unfairly charged for temporary periods of vacancy with genuine reasons. They include properties recently sold or currently listed for sale or rent, properties vacant due to the occupier’s illness or long-term care, and properties vacant as a result of significant refurbishment work.

Juran · 10-10-2023 11:12am

I know a very frugal person. I reckon his annual ESB reading would be less than say a vacant house where someone might stay for a few weeks holidays and would leave the heat and a few lights are left on all year to keep it warm and secure.

Love to see his face if a vacant property tax bill arrives at his door :))

Varik · 10-10-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121217479#Comment_121217479

Have a good few relatives like that.

Some emigrated and kept their house to offer to people, a few had their parents house empty but maintained for the same, and couple of holiday homes that would have been rented out during college year.

tinytobe · 10-10-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121217524#Comment_121217524

This is why I am so furious about this vacant home tax. Also it targets the wrong audience here.

The tax should rather target land which is to be develloped, but it is not, or somebody owning multiple properties which were bought with intention to be let but are sitting empty.

However it should not target someobody who owns one single property and is absent for professional reasons for whatever length of time.

Geuze · 10-10-2023 3:43pm

There is also a new tax on zoned land.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/residential-zoned-land/index.aspx

Geuze · 10-10-2023 3:44pm

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/vacant-homes-tax/exemptions/index.aspx

Vacant Homes Tax (VHT) exemptions

Consonata · 10-10-2023 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121218959#Comment_121218959

Why should it not? I don't really know why folk who are absent abroad for a number of years should not rent out their home for that period.

10-10-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121218980#Comment_121218980

If you are abroad for a year or two there is no guarantee that you will get back your house from a tenant when you return. It may be safer to leave empty with someone keeping an eye on it.

Consonata · 10-10-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219112#Comment_121219112

If that's a risk somebody does not want to take, they should be taxed appropriately for leaving the house vacant. More often than not Landlords do get their properties back, especially these days.

Calahonda52 · 10-10-2023 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216491#Comment_121216491

They will look for rental evidence and if not then will assess the gift of free rent based on market rent: 2,000/month at 50%...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216470#Comment_121216470

I couldn't agree less with this, should be more use of this sort of data by Revenue: its also used to find grow houses who have bypassed the meter.

L1011 · 10-10-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121217571#Comment_121217571

Smart meter interval periods would show if it was an occasional blast of use or not.

I'd say most people with a holiday house do use it 30 days a year though - even doing most but not all of them 7 bank holiday weekends, the run at Christmas and a summer holiday will bring you there and that assumes no other usage. I've been keeping count just in case and I'm at 25 already despite not having done New Years, Feb BH or Easter; and with October BH and Christmas to come.

tinytobe · 10-10-2023 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219129#Comment_121219129

This is what I don't agree with.

This kind of law would even decide whether I would be buying a property in Ireland at all.

Suppose I really get a secondment overseas, or a temporary job for 2 years in the US, then I am neither willing to pay this tax, nor willing to rent it out.

And pls don't start that, kind of "if you can afford the apartment, you can also afford the tax".

Ginger83 · 10-10-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219142#Comment_121219142

Yes you'd probably have to do rent a room or temporarily put it up for sale if away short term

Viscount Aggro · 10-10-2023 4:49pm

What if you have a vacant property, but you are paying LPT ?

Is this in scope for the new tax ?

L1011 · 10-10-2023 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219279#Comment_121219279

Yes

Geuze · 10-10-2023 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219279#Comment_121219279

Yes, and the VHT will now be 5x LPT.

Consonata · 10-10-2023 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219233#Comment_121219233

Given how low LPT is, the Vacant Homes Tax is a pittance in comparison to the benefit garnered from owning the property/renting it.

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058317489/major-hike-in-vacant-home-tax

do you even own a house

leaving a house vacant for the year is a stupid idea

tinytobe · 10-10-2023 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219634#Comment_121219634

I am aware of this. However you can have relatives looking after it. It's been done before. Also, some people own apartments and they decide for an apartment as it can be left alone easier for a longer period of time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219467#Comment_121219467

What I fail to understand is, you work hard for what you have, a job can take you overseas for a few years and you want to return, keep your furniture somewhere, and the government has the right to charge you penal taxes for your professional flexibility, for something you've worked for in earnest with the intention to rent it to tenants who may trash it.

Also if you're absent you're still subject to the same LPT, but not consuming the water, not using the garbage collection, etc, but yet, you're faced with an even higher tax?

What kind of stupidity is this?

And remember, the way to solve the Irish housing crisis is not to tax the innocent, but to simply create more supply and build more properties.

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220436#Comment_121220436

if you chose this option then you pay a small amount of tax for the easy option

People are homeless, the government won't fix it, rents are high

10-10-2023 9:05pm

I have received a letter from revenue stating that according to data available to them, I may be liable for VHT. I know for a fact that they are basing this solely on my electricity usage. My most recent bill shows that I used 18 units of electricity over the last 60 days. But, I generate most of my own electricity which is fed into a battery bank during the day and I consume it when I arrive home in the evening.

The ability for a government department to poke their nose into anyone's private transactions and make ridiculous assumptions is just the thin end of the wedge and if you take this bulls--t to it's logical conclusion, it's going down a marxist communist path. Think CBDC, chinese credit score, facial recognition etc.

Get rid of that smart meter ASAP.

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220642#Comment_121220642

show us the letter

Do you know who else knows how much leccy your use....

The ESB

Do you know who knows how much money you earn, the gubbernment

It's a dark slippery hole you live in

Consonata · 10-10-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220436#Comment_121220436

Yeah. LPT is a tax on wealth. That's the whole point of it. A VHT taxing folk higher for a house they aren't using is progressive, i.e not taxing the people who actually need the house for the roof over their head. It provides revenue to the government to build more homes.

Consonata · 10-10-2023 9:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220642#Comment_121220642

Its funny that somebody who is worried about the government poking their nose into a persons business, appears to have made their phone number their username on a public internet forum.

10-10-2023 9:45pm

This is the body of the letter; Thousands of one off homeowners getting it.

Vacant Homes Tax (VHT)

Property ID: (PropertyId)

PIN: (PIN)

Dear (CustomerName),

I am writing to you about the Vacant Homes Tax (VHT). VHT is a self-assessed tax that was introduced in the Finance Act 2022. For this tax, ‘vacant’ means a residential property was used as a dwelling for less than 30 days in the 12-month period ending on 31 October 2023.

Data available to Revenue indicates that you may have a liability to this tax. You are required to confirm if your property is liable to the tax as soon as possible and by 7 November 2023 at the latest. You can do this by simply logging in to any one of Revenue’s secure channels.

• You can login to myAccount – look for the Vacant Homes Tax link on the right-hand side under Property and Land Services. If you have a verified MyGovID you can use that to access myAccount.

• You can login to ROS – look for the Vacant Homes Tax link under the Other Services section.

• You can login to the LPT Portal available on www.revenue.ie, using your Property ID and PIN shown at the top of this letter, along with your PPSN – look for the Vacant Homes Tax link on the top-right of the screen after you login.

The system will guide you through the three-step process to review your details, submit your return and make your payment if necessary. The VHT amount is calculated by the Revenue system when you submit your return. It is set at three times the Local Property Tax rate.

More information is available at www.revenue.ie/VHT or scan this QR code.

Thank you for your attention to this letter.

Yours sincerely,

Katie Clair

Principal Officer

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220883#Comment_121220883

so log in, it's not vacant submit

Off to bed

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220914#Comment_121220914

There are very few vacant properties

So not much money will be raised

10-10-2023 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220735#Comment_121220735

If you think it's my phone number, why don't you try ringing it.

hometruths · 10-10-2023 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121216491#Comment_121216491

It won't be that easy. The occupancy in excess of 30 days has to be a "relevant tenancy".

2.3.2 Subject to a Relevant Tenancy

A property will be outside the scope of VHT if it is subject to a ‘relevant tenancy’ for a minimum period of 30 days in the chargeable period.

A ‘relevant tenancy’ is defined as a tenancy that has been made between a landlord and tenant who are not connected with each other; and which has been registered with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB).

Anybody who thinks they can just tell the Revenue to mind their own business because their relatives were using the place might be in for a surprise.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-22b/22b-01-01.pdf

EDIT: actually scratch the above. Further reading of the link shows that's exactly what you can do. Just say a friend was kipping there.

Kay has a property in West Clare. She uses it as her holiday home and stays there overnight for 10 nights in December and 14 nights in June. She allows her friend Mary to use it as a holiday home. Mary stays there overnight for 7 nights in July. As the property was occupied as a dwelling for a total of 31 nights in the chargeable period (1 November to the following 31 October), it is not liable to VHT

Typical. A vacancy tax with teeth is sorely needed, but this is a waste of time.

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221063#Comment_121221063

You just say I'm using it for 31 days intermittently and off you go

No one will pay this self assessed tax

The amounts are so low it won't make any money or disincentivize as anyone

Typical nonsense

L1011 · 10-10-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221063#Comment_121221063

If an individual relative is using it *a lot*, Revenue may go after the relative for CAT on the gift of the rental of it.

hometruths · 10-10-2023 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221219#Comment_121221219

Sure you'd think that would make sense.

But the way the tax is applied once it's over 30 days the tax does not apply so it's none of Revenue's business whether relative is there a lot or not!

The way they're implementing it is a waste of time and will have little effect on the vacancy problem.

Ginger83 · 10-10-2023 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221063#Comment_121221063

Sure look at the exemptions. Anyone away short term just stick it on the market or on daft.ie for rent

I know that in the current housing situation this is not ideal but some just won't be forced into renting their property for many reasons and it's hard to blame them.

What if a property is deemed uninhabitable? I know in the north people that may have inherited a house have removed the roof tiles as a workaround. I couldn't believe it when visiting a friend and I asked about two houses in his village.

hometruths · 10-10-2023 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221279#Comment_121221279

If a property is uninhabitable then it is not liable for LPT.

And only properties that are liable for LPT are subject to the vacant tax.

the.red.baron · 10-10-2023 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221279#Comment_121221279

Sorry removed the roof tiles and doing untold damage to the property

SuperBowserWorld · 10-10-2023 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221279#Comment_121221279

Reminded me of the window tax ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_tax

batman75 · 10-10-2023 11:18pm

Its a populist measure but I can't see it bringing many vacant houses into the supply pool. They should properly incentivise the use of space overhead shops on streets. That's a huge amount of space across the country currently vacant. Incentivise turning empty high street properties to residential use.

Ginger83 · 10-10-2023 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221337#Comment_121221337

I thought it was nuts

jonnygee · 10-10-2023 11:19pm

So if you have a holiday home that you are currently using for 4 weeks per year then you now have the option of using it for another three days per year or paying revenue another tax equivalent to lpt x 5.

Tough decision.

Major hike in vacant home tax?

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