RUGBY WORLD CUP: Issues with Format/Competitiveness

TheRona · 07-10-2023 7:44am #1

Discuss your issues with the Rugby World Cup format and levels of competitiveness here, along with suggestions for improvement.

07-10-2023 8:05am

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JeffKenna · 07-10-2023 8:08am

Hahaha

Cluedo Monopoly · 07-10-2023 9:31am

I love rugby but I think rugby world cups are boring. Most games and outcomes are utterly predictable until the knockout stages. Give me a 6 nations any day.

Namibia have been at every world cup and lost every single game. 26 games I believe. Pointless stuff.

Dick phelan · 07-10-2023 12:14pm

Rugby will not grow until the people at the top have a desire to actually improve teams. It's a closed door system designed to maintain things as they are. Word Rugby hates the idea of Fiji being better than Australia. Because Georgia don't bring revenue they won't be given a chance at 6N despite Italy being an embarrassing mess. Why has Japan gone backwards despite hosting the WC and looking like a serious coming force 4 years ago? Rugby will start falling behind to Rugby League Sevens or other sports. Could well go the way of Test Cricket whereby T20 has come in and taken over as the popular format.

Shank Williams · 07-10-2023 12:22pm

still run by dinosaurs at the top I suspect - pure cargo cult thinking- keep imitating the fifa World Cup by expanding = ????? = profit

desperately poor showcase for the sports- very few meaningful games over 5 weeks- knockouts compromised due to idiotic early seeding- loads of thumping of “ave a go” heroes who simply should not be there.

theres solutions but it will require people at the top to admit hard truths so not going to happen

Dubinusa · 07-10-2023 2:55pm

Look at the clusterfcuk in England. Teams folding and the premiership is at 10 sides. Rugby can't maintain a very low standard in England! The biggest union. How can rugby grow when Oz are now a tier 2 nation?

It may develop in Uraguay or Chile. But so what? Both are small nations with little financial clout. There's so little interest in rugby. Marketing and advertising is so poor.

I suppose that if rugby ever is to grow, Germany and the U.S would be ideal to lay the seed. Italy has been a failure. It's disappointing for sure, but Italy was and is an opportunity. It's a big nation with a massive sports culture and here we are watching them getting horsed by France.

Looking at the Pacific island teams, there's great players and rugby is big but, there's no financial clout. Scotland are a mess. The u20's are 2nd division and there's no end to their demise. They are achieving a lot with so little. Wales are threading water. Realistically, the game will develop if there's multiple tournaments in bigger nations and its aired globally. Touring sides like the Babarians could play multiple matches in places like Canada, U.S, South America and Asia. Host the Heineken cup final in Spain or Germany.

There's many options and closing the corral gate to protect the Scotlands and Itay's in rugby is poor.

Lost Ormond · 07-10-2023 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204879#Comment_121204879

Its a very conservative sport and the big unions are very protectionist of themselves over all else. I dont think World Rugby hate Idea of Fiji being better than Australia but do see A strong Australia as essential as sport is struggling there because of so much domestically and they cant have that with a world cup in Australia in 4 years time

Japan lost out hugely because of covid. They didnt play for 20 months or so following being knocked out of the 2019 world cup.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204915#Comment_121204915

What solutions?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205523#Comment_121205523

Australia aent tier 2. Barbarians wont do anything to transform other countries.

RAKM · 07-10-2023 6:12pm

Cant stand this idea of spreading the game. Its always gonna be a minority game. Even Italy in the 6N has failed. 23 yrs after joining they lost all their games and conceded 4 tries in each. Ireland improved more during that time. RWC shoud be 16 at most with a tournament for weaker nations the year before with 1 or 2 qualifiers at most.

Lost Ormond · 07-10-2023 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121206362#Comment_121206362

The sport is struggling in different ways in many of the strongest countries and needs to expand to newer markets or it will struggle even further.

Every sport is a minority sport compared to the very big soccer etc.

Italy hasnt failed in the 6 nations. A 16 team world cup doesnt help the sport. doesnt help the existing countries finances. doesnt help anyone.

RAKM · 07-10-2023 9:42pm

I take the point on finances.

Shank Williams · 07-10-2023 9:46pm

You could make a strong case for a 4 team World Cup based on the rubbish on display here from Scotland

chrisd2019 · 07-10-2023 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058317130/rugby-world-cup-issues-with-format-competitiveness

Reduce the number of teams, reduce the size of squads and have games closer together, that way teams have to use a full squad without one sides games that are more like training games where players are currently rested.

Over a month so far and less than a handful of meaningful games.

Lost Ormond · 08-10-2023 5:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121207397#Comment_121207397

You can't reduce size of squads and also reduce gap vlbetween games. They've had to extend to 33 from 31 for good reason. Injeuy cover etc

There would be more meaningful pool games if they changed conpetitions/games beyond the world cup not format/structure of the tournament itself

chrisd2019 · 08-10-2023 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208147#Comment_121208147

My suggest was that teams with fewer members in the squad and more frequent games, would be made to use the full squad, not play the same 15 in each game. Ultimately the issue is however the wide gap in standards between the best and worst. Soccer will go the same way also with larger number of teams in future world cups.

Fred Cryton · 08-10-2023 12:50pm

I have two sons, both likely to be 6'3 at least when they get to adulthood and do not want either of them playing rugby. It's a brutal, nasty sport. Fingers in the eye, head clashes, stamping etc. A gentlemans sport it most certainly is not. Give me tennis or golf any day of the week.

If anything, people with my view are going to grow in number and rugby may diminish further at the grassroots level.

Buddy Bubs · 08-10-2023 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208860#Comment_121208860

When I was a kid playing mini rugby in the early 90s loads of my friends weren't allowed play so it's not a new view you have.

It's not for everyone, it's a tough uncompromising sport.

Contrary to what people believe because of the games exposure, adult playing numbers are well down on what it was even in the 70s/80s when my dad was playing.

Underage numbers way up but they don't stick with it

Lost Ormond · 08-10-2023 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208442#Comment_121208442

That wouldnt happen though and doesnt help anyone though as you would still have big wins between top sides and the weakest sides. nothing changing in format of world cup will change that only changes to what teams play/do in between world cups will help increase standards. you cant compare soccer to rugby in this regard.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208860#Comment_121208860

Brutal. Yes at times it can be but nasty. not at all. there can be head clashes in lots of sports. stamping same.

There is nothing to back up people with your view is growing as in fact the opposite is true. the number of kids able to access and play rugby has grown exponentianally in the past 2 decades and likely to grow even more in years to come

OldRio · 08-10-2023 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208860#Comment_121208860

Its not for you obviously. All contact sports has risk.

stephen_n · 08-10-2023 3:41pm

Italy are telling of the need to manage expectations of what is achievable. The idea of teams getting more access to Tier 1 nations, will automatically improve them, has no real evidence. Italy have had 23 years of top level access and if anything have regressed in that time. Why would Georgia, or any other country be different. The reality is that for a lot of these countries, they will never be competitive against the top 5 teams, possibly the top 8. So that shouldn’t be the expectation or bench mark.

Growing the game in these countries, increasing player numbers, increasing interest. That should be the measure of success. Portugal’s success at this World Cup will probably do that for them.

ironically increasing the numbers will mean more competitive games for the smaller teams. We will still see blow outs but 4 groups of 6 would also mean no break weeks, so the Tier 1’s can’t go as strong as they have this year.

gameoverdude · 08-10-2023 3:46pm

Is this turning into a rugby bashing thread?

I got more concussions/injuries in soccer than rugby(stitches don't count as injuries).

Buddy Bubs · 08-10-2023 5:43pm

At least the complaints about the seedings and groups will give us 4 competitive quarter finals.

Dave_The_Sheep · 09-10-2023 5:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208860#Comment_121208860

I will admit I have a certain temptation to just post "Alright, see you now, don't bother posting here again" and I'd probably be ok with that.

But assuming that you're the type of person the sport is try to attract, what would you do about those problems you mention above to try fix them?

sprucemoose · 10-10-2023 5:12pm

global calendar needs to happen imo

move rwc outside of domestic competition time

run a plate competition as part of the rwc

1 & 2 in the group go to cup 1/4 finals, 3 & 4 go to plate 1/4s

could even have a bowl competition for 5th place

Lost Ormond · 10-10-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219381#Comment_121219381

A global calender needs to happen but how do you move world cup outside of domestic calender to take into account competitions in both hemispheres.

We don't need a plate competition. We need more games for the countries outside of the rugby championship and 6 nations against the rest of the world to help those countries close gap.

A bowl competition isn't what's needed for same reason. Many of the countries like georgia and Fiji need 5/6 games A year against ireland/new zealand/France not what they get right now. A plate/Bowl d9esnt help with that

Podge_irl · 10-10-2023 6:31pm

The problem with a plate competition is that you would basically have Australia or Scotland romping it if they so chose, but more likely a completely disinterested Australia and Scotland just going through the numbers.

sydthebeat · 12-10-2023 7:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219829#Comment_121219829

Well an interested Australia got beaten by Fiji this year, and an interested Scotland got beaten by Japan 4 years ago, as did we

Just because a so-called "tier 1" team may end up in a bowl competition is absolutely no guarantee that could "romp" home in it if they chose.

Personally I think it's an absolute no-brainer, if the figures work out (and between ticket sales and TV rights I can't see why not).

Podge_irl · 12-10-2023 9:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226733#Comment_121226733

They got beaten by a Japan team who very much would not have been in the plate competition! Same goes for Aus

Italy

Uruguay

Scotland

Tonga

Australia

Portugal

Japan

Samoa

A tier 2 team is not winning that competition. It will be won by a tier 1 team/Japan who don't really want to be there.

sydthebeat · 12-10-2023 9:57am

Who wouldnt want to see an Italy or Japan win that??

Obviously Scotland would be heavy heavy favourites for it, but peg Scotland v Aussie in the first round and it's anyone's.

Edit: and Portugal v Uruguay would be a better watch than most of the pool games in this year's rwc

Podge_irl · 12-10-2023 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227137#Comment_121227137

Who wouldnt want to see an Italy or Japan win that??

I suspect Italy and Japan for starters. They just wouldn't care. Half the teams in the competition would have no interest in being in it - I'd say a bunch of them would probably return to their clubs instead.

sydthebeat · 12-10-2023 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227217#Comment_121227217

ah here I think youre jumping the shark now podge.

Do you seriously think that Italy, perennial wooden spoonists in the only test competition they play every year, wouldnt celebrate a RWC bowl win?? their ONLY international honour is a FIRA cup (european nations cup) back in 1996

i think a RWC bowl win for Italy could be the very catalyst they need in that country to grow the game, because they arent winning a 6N or RWC in the foreseeable future.

for japan, similarly their grand total of any championship wins is 2.5 pacific nations cup wins. They measure their progress in "tier 1" victories.

a far as players returning to their clubs? like the RWC finalists, the most they would miss in the URC is 2 rounds, and none if it was japan, and like everyone else, regulation 9 applies.

Jump_In_Jack · 12-10-2023 12:01pm

If sticking with 20 teams split over 4 pools of 5, I'd do the following:

Pools as normal, then:

A-Tournament

1-8 into quarters of the A, branching to 4 into semis of an A Proper and 4 into semis of an A Plate, culminating in an A Proper final and an A Plate final, no third place/consolation matches.

B-Tournament

9-16 into quarters of the B, branching to 4 into semis of a B Proper and 4 into semis of a B Plate, culminating in a B Proper final and a B Plate final, no third place/consolation matches.

C-Tournament

17-20 into semis of a C, culminating in a C final, no third place/consolation match.

Ideally I'd expand the pools to 6 teams to include Spain, USA, Canada and Hong Kong, in which case the C-Tournament would be 17-24 and would have quarters and a C Proper and a C Plate.

The reason for more playoff matches aside from the A Proper is that in my view it is the one opportunity every four years where we get to have a global rugby festival, and eliminating the final round of third placed matches but keeping an element of knockout rugby so all teams would be involved up to that point, and half of the teams involved in the final weekend would keep more people tuning in for longer.

12 quarters, 12 semis, and 6 finals on the final weekend as follows: C on Friday evening (e.g. C Plate Final @ 5:30PM and C Proper Final @ 8PM), B on Saturday afternoon (e.g. B Plate Final @ 12:30PM and B Proper Final @ 3PM), and A on Saturday evening (e.g. A Plate Final @ 5:30PM and A Proper Final @ 8PM).

Lost Ormond · 12-10-2023 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227607#Comment_121227607

I don't think we need or should be having everyone playing out finals.

It's an elite tournament if you want to get .ore games for teams do it in the rest of the 4 year world Cup cycle.

Georgia, Fiji, Uruguay etc don't need games against each other in a world cup tiered playoff they need games against Ireland, Australia, every year.

These changes don't do this enough. It just allows Ireland and other 6 nations and rugby championship sides to pretty much ignore all other countries outside of the world cup.

Dubinusa · 12-10-2023 1:27pm

If Romania or Georgia could get into a league like the urc or top 14, they would improve. It won't happen. But a run out in a league, week after week would increase their skills and expose them to top level opponents.

Financially it's probably not on the cards. Imagine the interest in these countries if LaR or Toulouse came to play.

Hoboo · 12-10-2023 1:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058317130/rugby-world-cup-issues-with-format-competitiveness

What’s your opinion?

TheRona · 12-10-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228078#Comment_121228078

I don't have one. I've been enjoying the RWC. I was just sick of people arguing about it every time people were trying to discuss a match that was on. It completely derailed the main thread.

That said, some of the ideas here are decent.

bilston · 12-10-2023 2:32pm

The world cup mismatches are what happens when the 4 years in between are mismanaged.

Japan and Fiji should join the Rugby Championship as soon as is possible. This is an absolute no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

It's hard to know the best path for the likes of Georgia, Portugal and Romania and Spain. The 6Ns is owned by the six countries that compete in it, so they are never going to agree to promotion and relegation. Then only way other teams get in is via expansion and realistically SA are more like to join than any European team.

I think one thing that needs to happen is that Tier 1 sides start to play games in Lisbon and Tblissi and Georgia and Portugal get 3 matches against decent opposition in November and again in June.

TheRona · 12-10-2023 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228528#Comment_121228528

TBF, the last 4 years was really screwed by Covid. I was looking at highlights of Ireland touring NZ last year, and the NZ coaching team were still wearing masks. Mad.

Getting Japan and Fiji into the RC would need to jump a few hurdles. Home and Away wouldn't be viable any more. Also, you're getting into some pretty insane travel times.

sprucemoose · 12-10-2023 6:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227891#Comment_121227891

you could do both?

expand the rwc to have a secondary competition for 3/4 place teams AND increase the exposure lower teams have against better opposition

another thing id like to see is extended touring squads for the summer/november tours with 'A' games similar to how the Irish tour to NZ last year worked, but against 'weaker' opposition - say Ireland A play Namibia next summer and NZ 'A' play Spain/Portugal in the Winter.

Financially it might not make sense though

Lost Ormond · 12-10-2023 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228064#Comment_121228064

Romania and Georgia are never going to get into the top 14. Or URC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229565#Comment_121229565

Expanding the world cup isnt needed as many of these countries play more than enough against each other. and its not at a world cup they need more games. they need a better focus and aim for outside of the world cup.

Expanding the world cup shouldnt happen because its not what these countries need. All that extra expense to do that at a world cup would be far better spent in implementing initiatives to improve standards of teams in the rest of the world cup cycle.

Australia playing Fiji every year/2nd year would be far more beneficial than any type of world cup seeding event. In the pro era Australia have played Fiji 8 times. 1 was a world cup qualifier, 3 were in games in world cups. that pretty much shows that in 30 years theyve only played fiji twice in tests that werent decided by world rugby. that isnt good enough.

you could say the same with the rest of the 6 nations and rugby championship sides.

RUGBY WORLD CUP: Issues with Format/Competitiveness

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