Hamas strike on Israel - Threadbans in op - mod warning in OP updated 19/10/23

So how should the IDF remove Hamas from Gaza are you a military expert who can see a better way?

Should the IDF go door to door looking for Hamas?

Maybe if it's impossible to destroy Hamas without killing innocent Palestinians Israel should just forget about removing Hamas.

Just improve their defense's and try stop any further attacks.

Would that be your advice?

Comparisons to NI are flawed on so many levels I’m not going down that rabbit hole.

I already said I’m not giving Israel carte Blanche- the best worst outcome right now is monitoring by the international community - I can still “not like” what’s happening but a bit of realism here has to come into play- you’re talking a very idealistic world- I wish it was that way but it’s not

The attacks at the weekend have been covered by international media and verified repeatedly.

The story about the babies as far as I can see has come from the IDF and hasn’t been independently verified.

It could absolutely be true, but spreading this sort of horrific information about an enemy to help justify actions to the wider world has been used in war before.

Its not crazy or dismissive to ask that something as abhorrent as that story have some sort of verification.

They’d be mad not to

He didn't lie. He mis-spoke.

As for camera phone - the implication is that you want to people to have captured the evidence to send to you?

Who do you think on the Israeli side is going to share those with you?

There's posts on the thread, describing the footage seen online during the attacks shared by the terrorists, and they describe children being mutilated.

If you want to confirm it for yourself, you can look on the dregs of the internet, as any responsible social media site has blocked footage of the horrific attacks.

Hamas executed civilians at a festival, they executed entire families. That is not in dispute.

The full extent of the horrors of those deaths is sensitive and still being established. Did it extend to rape? Mutilation? There is no disinformation.

Why are you lieing???

It's not dismissive or crazy to reserve judgment pending more verification.

But it is when the claims are immediately dismissed as atrocity propaganda.

At this stage all I'm asking is for it to be considered a "serious and realistic possibility" based on what we know of the agenda of HAMAS and what has been verified of the horrific attacks thus far.

The establishment of a Palestinian state in something close to the 1948 borders, with Fatah being backed politically and financially, Hamas targeted, with the goal of elimination, and West Bank settlers incentivised to move would be best

What is a lie?

Did Joe Biden see images of decapitated Israeli babies or didn’t he?

Well while I wouldn't personally put forward that argument as being relevant or justifying anything that was done, it would have a basis in fact given that all Israeli's must do compulsory military service, after which they officially remain in the reserves.

i.e. from a pure logical point of view, there are highly likely some of the 300k that have been activated this week who might just have easily been at that festival - were it not that something came up to prevent them from attending it.

Again, I am not justifying anything. They should not have been attacked. Only pointing out logic that might be in their minds.

Yes, Hamas executed civilians and the IDF executed POWs.

Isn't it true though that the overwhelming majority of people killed in the conflict historically have been Palestinians? I was looking at a report on the disparity of casualties (albeit dated 2014 but I imagine the proportions haven't changed much). From 2005 until that point, 4,006 people were killed in the conflict — comprising 168 Israelis and a frankly staggering 3,838 Palestinians.

Again, I just struggle to understand the thinking and rationale that underpins the way people seem to confidently choose sides in this debate. Hamas are fundamentalist religious fanatics who would gleefully commit the same level of barbarity as last weekend a thousand times over if they had the chance. The Palestinians do have an eminently just grievance against Israeli domination, oppression and aggression — not least based on the nature of their conditions and the fact that they have died in far greater number. Israel has legitimate concerns about its defence and cannot be expected to just entirely roll over and let its people be slaughtered and Israel exists now whether people like that or not — it can't just be expected to disappear. Hatred of Israel runs further than a simple territorial dispute or "freedom fight" in the eyes of many in the Arab world and beyond — there is a religious and Jew-hating fanaticism in there too.

All these things can be true at once. The barbarities committed by both sides go far beyond what can always be called a romantic freedom fight or a reluctant obligation to self-defence. There isn't going to be Palestinian freedom or Israeli security until people can make the ideological sacrifices necessary for either thing to exist.

I guess even the word “terrorist” these days is a loaded term. One groups terrorist is another groups “freedom fighter” - even that term “freedom fighter” is loaded and misused.

In terms of Hamas specifically no sorry, I definitely don’t believe they’re “freedom fighters”- they’re mass manipulators would be my best description - but as we’ve seen many times , what a groups stated aims are Vs what they actual do or end up doing to their own people (ISIS for example) can be poles apart.

Have Israel done wrong? Sure. Are Hamas freedom fighters? No, I disagree strongly on that description- the western world has been fooled too many times with those descriptions and rhetoric; western countries seem to irradiate “terrorist” organisations one day and “free” a country , only for another worse regime to take over a few years later. I think we need an international agreement around what is a terrorist regime vs what is a legitimate and recognised resistance organisation fighting an illegitimate and destructive and controlling force.

But I don’t think I’ll be holding my breath on getting that agreement 😀

Is it equally wrong to invent or exaggerate atrocities as it is, as you say to downplay them?